Position 2023: Defenders Discussion
- Thread starter KLo30
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Right lads, what are we thinking? Daicos the real deal? With Jones going down for the count, a restructure is in order to stop the bleeding at D3.
My big question is around if his role maintainable, and I actually can’t see why it wouldn’t be. Yes he’ll get some attention (more than the absolute 0 he got Friday) but week to week I’d wager he’d be left to do as he pleases more often than not.
Love to hear some opinions on him, feel free to wade in and tell me I’m dreaming if that’s the case.
Next 2 weeks are the most important of the season and the more discussion we get around the potential break outs the better.
My big question is around if his role maintainable, and I actually can’t see why it wouldn’t be. Yes he’ll get some attention (more than the absolute 0 he got Friday) but week to week I’d wager he’d be left to do as he pleases more often than not.
Love to hear some opinions on him, feel free to wade in and tell me I’m dreaming if that’s the case.
Next 2 weeks are the most important of the season and the more discussion we get around the potential break outs the better.
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I like Daicos as an option, I don't think there's too much more to discuss on him really, they'll be the camp that says watch the tag for sure but over the season he looks likely to improve, I'll be having a dabble.
Sheezel in will be my priority I think, not sure about much else at this stage, wasn't liking what I saw from Flanders so he's on watch.
I think a few will go to the NM lads but just remember they won't play WCE every week.
Sheezel in will be my priority I think, not sure about much else at this stage, wasn't liking what I saw from Flanders so he's on watch.
I think a few will go to the NM lads but just remember they won't play WCE every week.
I’m in the Stewart camp and will be looking closely at Daicos or Dawson as a replacement.
Current thinking is Daicos.
One overly simplistic way I’m looking at it is:
Highs: 130 for games when he runs free (Ala Round 1)
Lows: 70 for games when he gets tagged
Plus a bunch of scores in between that range. All this still washes out as an average of ~100, which at $500k is very solid and should see him in Top 6 for defenders
Current thinking is Daicos.
One overly simplistic way I’m looking at it is:
Highs: 130 for games when he runs free (Ala Round 1)
Lows: 70 for games when he gets tagged
Plus a bunch of scores in between that range. All this still washes out as an average of ~100, which at $500k is very solid and should see him in Top 6 for defenders
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Small sample so far, and it's hard to know from TV without seeing the whole structure, but it seems that coaches are unwilling or unable to put forward pressure on attacking defenders. Doch and Daics types pretty much just run free for 4 quarters and who knows who the hell Lever was defending, he was by himself that often. So, unless coaches change tactics, these runjing types in particular seem pretty safe for 105+ avgs
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History going far back as the days when Birchalll would smash out 120 over the first four rounds, shows coaches respond by round 5.
Expect we see how Daicos goes this week vs Port where they may put attention into him. May not be a hard Maginess tag, should show what is possible with moderate pressure. similar to what was done to Laird where he was outbodies at the coal face, another one who was suggested to be untaggable by some.
Difference between Doc and a Daicos is the amount of easy outside possessions the latter gets, they are easy to quell with a run with player. Lloyd use to run around and we questioned the lack of attention, may be perceived impact, also, dont think Lloyd pushed as far forward.
Expect we see how Daicos goes this week vs Port where they may put attention into him. May not be a hard Maginess tag, should show what is possible with moderate pressure. similar to what was done to Laird where he was outbodies at the coal face, another one who was suggested to be untaggable by some.
Difference between Doc and a Daicos is the amount of easy outside possessions the latter gets, they are easy to quell with a run with player. Lloyd use to run around and we questioned the lack of attention, may be perceived impact, also, dont think Lloyd pushed as far forward.
For my 2 cents worth it depends on the opposition style and the strength of the team. Some teams just don't tag, it is not their style. IMO other stronger teams believe they are good enough to beat the opposition playing their own game and so don't care how damaging a player is. I think lower and mid range teams are much more likely to apply pressure to Daicos because they don't have the quality or depth to beat Collingwood playing their own style of game. So nullifying a damaging player is much more valuable to them.
Also remembered reading this Nick Del Santo article below on taggers from back in 2021. Still an interesting read in terms of strategy and implications of tagging.
Every team in the AFL has a ruckman. Every team has a key forward, an inside midfielder, a rebounding half-back. Why doesn’t every team have a tagger?
They certainly used to. I had the (dis) pleasure of a rolling date with them when I was playing. Cameron Ling, Brady Rawlings, Ryan Crowley, Damien Peverill, James McDonald, Daniel Jackson, Robert Copeland and Tyson Stenglein were all waiting for you on game day.
When you played Sydney it seemed like they were everywhere. Brett Kirk, Jarryd McVeigh, Ben Matthews, Sean Dempster or Craig Bolton were all capable of making your job a nightmare. But in 2021, I can only think of four players used as a tagger in a game; Matt de Boer, Mark O’Connor, Ed Curnow, Kayne Turner.
The most obvious reason there aren’t 18 of them is simple. No-one drafts a tagger. Cameron Ling was a full forward, Clint Jones averaged 35 disposals a week at WAFL level. The tagger is a role that is thrust upon players who simply haven’t done it at lower levels.
Speaking to clubs, their theory on the downside of deploying a tagger is twofold:
1. A tagger can undo your midfield ‘structure’. A genuine tagger is so intent on locking down on a man, that they can be dragged around a stoppage and manipulated into creating pockets of space for other midfielders.
Travis Boak did this against Carlton when Ed Curnow was tagging him. He went and stood next to Patrick Cripps at stoppages. Now Curnow must make a choice. Either stay on his assignment, and allow Ollie Wines to run free, or move off Boak and go to Ollie Wines, which he did. It put the Port Adelaide midfield in control of the midfield space, and the match-ups within it.
Further to this if a midfielder getting tagged goes to a wing, half forward or full forward the ‘musical chairs’ it creates on the field – and on the coaches’ whiteboard – can put teams perpetually on the back foot. Does the tagger follow them everywhere they go? Or do they have a separate plan for the three different positions a star midfielder could go to?
2. If a tag doesn’t work, then what? Taggers have such a defined skill set that often they can’t be redeployed to other positions if a star midfielder breaks the tag. So what do you do? Either you persist with the failed tactic, or essentially play a man down by placing your tagger elsewhere.
So what do the clubs without a tagger do? To use Adam Simpson’s terminology, they’ll have a player who can act as a ‘cooler’. These midfielders will play their usual ball-winning role unless an opposition midfielder starts to dictate the game. Then they’ll ‘cool’ the opposition player with a short-term tag, or run-with role. Once the opposing player is subdued again, the cooler can revert to their primary midfield role. It might be for a quarter, a half, or until the player has been nullified.
Another phrase used within clubs is ‘control and exploit’. This involves applying tagging or defensive principles at stoppages, thereby ‘controlling’ the opposition midfielder, but then getting involved in attacking ball movement, trying to ‘exploit’ star midfielders’ reluctance to give a wholehearted defensive chase.
So just as we’re seeing hybrid roles in other positions in the AFL – the ruck/forward, or the ‘striker’ (a power mid-forward, coined by my old teammate Nick Riewoldt) we’re seeing ball-winning midfielders add ‘part-time tagger’ to their repertoire. So the taggers are still alive and well… they’re just hiding in plain sight.
Also remembered reading this Nick Del Santo article below on taggers from back in 2021. Still an interesting read in terms of strategy and implications of tagging.
Every team in the AFL has a ruckman. Every team has a key forward, an inside midfielder, a rebounding half-back. Why doesn’t every team have a tagger?
They certainly used to. I had the (dis) pleasure of a rolling date with them when I was playing. Cameron Ling, Brady Rawlings, Ryan Crowley, Damien Peverill, James McDonald, Daniel Jackson, Robert Copeland and Tyson Stenglein were all waiting for you on game day.
When you played Sydney it seemed like they were everywhere. Brett Kirk, Jarryd McVeigh, Ben Matthews, Sean Dempster or Craig Bolton were all capable of making your job a nightmare. But in 2021, I can only think of four players used as a tagger in a game; Matt de Boer, Mark O’Connor, Ed Curnow, Kayne Turner.
The most obvious reason there aren’t 18 of them is simple. No-one drafts a tagger. Cameron Ling was a full forward, Clint Jones averaged 35 disposals a week at WAFL level. The tagger is a role that is thrust upon players who simply haven’t done it at lower levels.
Speaking to clubs, their theory on the downside of deploying a tagger is twofold:
1. A tagger can undo your midfield ‘structure’. A genuine tagger is so intent on locking down on a man, that they can be dragged around a stoppage and manipulated into creating pockets of space for other midfielders.
Travis Boak did this against Carlton when Ed Curnow was tagging him. He went and stood next to Patrick Cripps at stoppages. Now Curnow must make a choice. Either stay on his assignment, and allow Ollie Wines to run free, or move off Boak and go to Ollie Wines, which he did. It put the Port Adelaide midfield in control of the midfield space, and the match-ups within it.
Further to this if a midfielder getting tagged goes to a wing, half forward or full forward the ‘musical chairs’ it creates on the field – and on the coaches’ whiteboard – can put teams perpetually on the back foot. Does the tagger follow them everywhere they go? Or do they have a separate plan for the three different positions a star midfielder could go to?
2. If a tag doesn’t work, then what? Taggers have such a defined skill set that often they can’t be redeployed to other positions if a star midfielder breaks the tag. So what do you do? Either you persist with the failed tactic, or essentially play a man down by placing your tagger elsewhere.
So what do the clubs without a tagger do? To use Adam Simpson’s terminology, they’ll have a player who can act as a ‘cooler’. These midfielders will play their usual ball-winning role unless an opposition midfielder starts to dictate the game. Then they’ll ‘cool’ the opposition player with a short-term tag, or run-with role. Once the opposing player is subdued again, the cooler can revert to their primary midfield role. It might be for a quarter, a half, or until the player has been nullified.
Another phrase used within clubs is ‘control and exploit’. This involves applying tagging or defensive principles at stoppages, thereby ‘controlling’ the opposition midfielder, but then getting involved in attacking ball movement, trying to ‘exploit’ star midfielders’ reluctance to give a wholehearted defensive chase.
So just as we’re seeing hybrid roles in other positions in the AFL – the ruck/forward, or the ‘striker’ (a power mid-forward, coined by my old teammate Nick Riewoldt) we’re seeing ball-winning midfielders add ‘part-time tagger’ to their repertoire. So the taggers are still alive and well… they’re just hiding in plain sight.
Going to be an interesting one... they've got St Kilda this week which could massively skew people's perception.
Let's take a look at what the 3 main Freo defenders scored against St Kilda in Round 1: 171, 154 and 137. Clarke, Pearce and Chapman also scored 100, 92 and 90. If Ross deploys the same game plan and Liam can remember how to chip and mark around the back 50, 90+ is not out of the question at all, given 6 Freo defenders made that mark last week.
Question is, if he scores an 80 do you hold and wait for him to drop back to a 40 the week after?
Let's take a look at what the 3 main Freo defenders scored against St Kilda in Round 1: 171, 154 and 137. Clarke, Pearce and Chapman also scored 100, 92 and 90. If Ross deploys the same game plan and Liam can remember how to chip and mark around the back 50, 90+ is not out of the question at all, given 6 Freo defenders made that mark last week.
Question is, if he scores an 80 do you hold and wait for him to drop back to a 40 the week after?