Discussion Re-Signings, Retirements, Delistings, Trade & Drafting

Rowsus

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I suspect that is what it will take however in my view no pick 1 is worth 2 & 3.
Agreed. No guarantees he's a superstar. Remember the hype about Jack Martin looking to be the most outstanding prospect in a long time.
Jack Martin was taken as pick 1 in the 2012 mini draft of 17 year olds. Trades that were given to GWS to help them build their initial list, and were largely expected to be traded on. The 4 17yo players taken with those concession picks were Martin, Hogan, O'Meara and Brad Crouch. With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure Martin was measurably better than any of them.
 
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Agreed. No guarantees he's a superstar. Remember the hype about Jack Martin looking to be the most outstanding prospect in a long time.
Jack Martin was taken as pick 1 in the 2012 mini draft of 17 year olds. Trades that were given to GWS to help them build their initial list, and were largely expected to be traded on. The 4 17yo players taken with those concession picks were Martin, Hogan, O'Meara and Brad Crouch. With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure Martin was measurably better than any of them.
Honestly as a Carlton fan I'd say he's probably delivered the least of the four - although all four have been serviceable rather than exceptional (at least after Hogan's first year or two). In the case of Martin I think a lot of it is just the general GC problem - they wanted him to be too much, too soon. I would say this is the first year he's looked consistent and that seems primarily because he's got a simplified role and a good team around him.
 

Darkie

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Pretty much. 2 and either 3 / F1 would probably be the minimum required to get pick 1 if the Hawks 4 / F1 offer was rejected - that is most likely two top 4 picks (it may have only been a rumoured offer though, not sure if it ever was on the table - hard to tell with all the media stories).

I still think the Eagles end up keeping pick 1.
It will be very interesting to see how it ultimately plays out.

West Coast need more than one good player given their list position, whereas North have heaps of young talent already, plus a much deeper draft hand, and would benefit more by adding one extremely good player than “just” an increased number of good ones.

On the other hand, WC would seem more likely to split pick 1 if there were two strong WA prospects that they could secure with the proceeds. The second best WA prospect isn’t that highly ranked this year though, so splitting probably isn’t as attractive as last year for that reason as well.
 
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It's interesting.
While both were on Sydney's list in 2014-2016, in that time Naismith played 13 games, and Nankervis 12 games.
They played 4 games together, all in 2016 (Rnds 19, 20, 21, semi-final).
Naismith went on to play in the prelim and the GF that season, without Nankervis.
Yes, I remember Nankervis was the 4th choice ruck option behind Tippett, Reid, and Naismith. If I'm correct, Nankervis is the only premiership player out of the lot. As Jack Sparrow would say, 'it's a funny ol' world, innit?'
 

Goodie's Guns

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Hard to believe Ben McKay is going to get $1.4M - $1.5M next year from his new deal, the most of anyone in the AFL.

I'm glad the Hawks missed out on him with that sort of price tag.
Front ended, not sure why people are so surprised by it and the figures. Makes absolute sense for the Bombers to get as much of the contract out of the way while they have cap space.

Hawks financial offer has been reported in places as having actually been more than what he’s accepted at the Bombers, and I know for a fact we were also going to massively front end his deal if he chose us.
 

Rowsus

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Front ended, not sure why people are so surprised by it and the figures. Makes absolute sense for the Bombers to get as much of the contract out of the way while they have cap space.

Hawks financial offer has been reported in places as having actually been more than what he’s accepted at the Bombers, and I know for a fact we were also going to massively front end his deal if he chose us.
Do yo have a opinion on whether he is worth the contract he has been offered?
Most people wold say no, but maybe Hawthorn believed he was just what they needed.
 

Goodie's Guns

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Do yo have a opinion on whether he is worth the contract he has been offered?
Most people wold say no, but maybe Hawthorn believed he was just what they needed.
Me personally, I actually do. With the increased CBA and salary caps coming, and the obvious acceptance of clubs to pay key position players such figures, I think figures like this are going to quickly become the norm.

Yeah he might have struggled at times this year, but he’s in the right age bracket for teams like ESS, HAW, and obviously NTH. Personally I’ve always liked him, he has his flaws and you’d like to see improvements. For mine I would’ve been comfortable with my club recruiting him on that money, maybe that’s just because of our situation and cap space.

Having said all that, I do see how many are of the belief he’s overpaid. But the fact he’s one of the highest earners this year in the competition, as a result of structuring his salary to front end and allow flexibility down the line, shouldn’t be a surprise.
 
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Front ended, not sure why people are so surprised by it and the figures. Makes absolute sense for the Bombers to get as much of the contract out of the way while they have cap space.

Hawks financial offer has been reported in places as having actually been more than what he’s accepted at the Bombers, and I know for a fact we were also going to massively front end his deal if he chose us.
It's a fair point as being higher as the deal is front ended, I just think if you were to name who the highest paid AFL players should be based on output, he would possibly only just scrape into my top 50 (more likely not even that).

I do understand you need to significantly overpay now to get a KPP from another club, and he is a good age too, but it still seems excessive to me. Hopefully we can get someone even better next year I guess.

He will be getting on a bit, but Tom Stewart is a free agent next year, he could be an option in defence for a few years if his body holds up while we develop some other players. If he is interested of course. I'm sure there's other good options too.
 
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I was sent this article yesterday also but he numbers aren't nearly as bad as it seems. From 2012 there has been 2 of 11 number 1 selections make the AA team. Of the remaining you could argue that Horne, JUH, Weitering are a lock at some point, Cadman and Rowell high possibilities also?
That would increase the amount to 64%. I haven't crunched the numbers but I would argue this figure could possibly be higher than picks 2 and 3 together over this time period?
 
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It will be very interesting to see how it ultimately plays out.

West Coast need more than one good player given their list position, whereas North have heaps of young talent already, plus a much deeper draft hand, and would benefit more by adding one extremely good player than “just” an increased number of good ones.

On the other hand, WC would seem more likely to split pick 1 if there were two strong WA prospects that they could secure with the proceeds. The second best WA prospect isn’t that highly ranked this year though, so splitting probably isn’t as attractive as last year for that reason as well.
Back in 2021 North were offered pick 4, Adelaide and Melbourne's future first round selections for pick 1. At the time I said we were irresponsible for not accepting that deal even though I was obsessed with watching South Adelaide SANFL finals series.
This time around I see West Coast in the position we were in in terms of depth of young talent and we have an excess of draft capital. Sliding back 1 selection plus gaining multiple other selections in my mind is an absolute no brainer for all involved
 

Darkie

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I was sent this article yesterday also but he numbers aren't nearly as bad as it seems. From 2012 there has been 2 of 11 number 1 selections make the AA team. Of the remaining you could argue that Horne, JUH, Weitering are a lock at some point, Cadman and Rowell high possibilities also?
That would increase the amount to 64%. I haven't crunched the numbers but I would argue this figure could possibly be higher than picks 2 and 3 together over this time period?
I think you’re right in that there is upside to the proportion of #1s that have achieved an AA guernsey in the fullness of time, but if that is the case, it would also be true of the #2s and 3s.

Since 2006 I believe it looks like this (#1 player and number of AAs vs #2 and 3 players and number of AAs)

2006 Gibbs 0 vs Gumbleton 0 + Hansen 0
2007 Kreuzer 0 vs Cotchin 1 + Masten 0
2008 Watts 0 vs NicNat 3 + S Hill 0
2009 Scully 0 vs Trengove 0 + Dusty 4
2010 Swallow 0 vs Bennell 0 + S Day 0
2011 Patton 0 vs Cogs 0 + Tyson 0
2012 Whitfield 1 vs O’Rourke 0 + Plowman 0
2013 Boyd 0 vs J Kelly 1 + Mills 0
2014 P McCartin 0 vs Trac 4 + Angus Brayshaw 0
2015 Weitering 0 vs Schache 0 + Billings 0
2016 McGrath 0 vs Taranto 0 + Clug 0
2017 Rayner 0 vs Andrew Brayshaw 1 + Dow 0
2018 Walsh 1 vs Lukosius 0 + Rankine 0
2019 Rowell 0 vs Anderson 0 + L Jackson 0
2020 JUH 0 vs Thilthorpe 0 + Phillips 0
2021 JHF 0 vs Sam Darcy 0 + Callaghan 0
2022 Cadman 0 vs Ashcroft 0 + Sheezel 0

#1s 2 guernseys
#2s 10 guernseys
#3s 5 guernseys

So the #1s are well and truly covered by the 2s and 3s (2 guernseys vs 15 combined). Even the #3s alone have the #1s well covered (2 vs 5), albeit Dusty contributed 4 of those!

One thing that I think is striking is that even the two “successful” #1 picks have “only” earned one guernsey each. There have been no multiple representatives to date.

In terms of #2s and 3s that would have a good chance at earning an AA guernsey at some point, the names would probably include Clug, Anderson, Jackson, Ashcroft, Sheezel and arguably others. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Trac or Andrew Brayshaw in there again, which would boost the 2s and 3s tally.

Interestingly, here’s the performance of a select few #5s - admittedly a couple of them outside of the 2006+ era 😋

2004 Franklin 8
2005 Pendlebury 7
2006 Boak 3

Any of those 3 currently has the whole of the 2006-22 cohort of #1 picks covered 😱

If WC can get anywhere near pick 2 and 3 for pick 1, they should take it and run!
 
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