Analysis 2023 Preseason Games
- Thread starter wogitalia
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Hawthorn vs Collingwood
General - Watched the 1st half. This was utterly terrible to watch, just awful football, no physicality and to cap it off had to put up with Garry Lyon who somehow still has a job, is there anyone in the world who actually wants to listen to that moron other than him? Like he's got an annoying voice, he says nothing that adds value and talks SO much. Seriously though, the game itself was awful, looked like a flag game or circle work. Some stuff may have changed in the 2nd half, so buyer beware here. Interesting to see the fantasy scores this time and how they differ or match to my eye test, obviously hard with only a half watched also.
Hawks - Pathetic pressure levels but hung in the game, honestly felt like they dragged the Pies down to their level and then kind of beat them with experience at that level, CB were a big issue in the first half, not sure if that improved. Had a very close to best 22 group playing for mine.
Newcombe - Was very good on the spread, laid just about the only genuine tackle of the half so kudos to him. He looks really good, not sure how much he improves on last year but he's definitely worth an earlyish pick in draft comps and wouldn't be at all surprised if he pushed towards 110 range. I had him as their clear CBA leader and #1 midfielder by some distance.
Impey - Half back role to my eye, played decently in a game style that really suited him.
Worpel - His SC ratio is incredible, must have been amazing in the 2nd half. He's such a puzzling player, he's genuinely elite without the ball and in the discussion for the worst I've ever seen with it. I think the only times he even thought about where he kicked it in the entire half was the couple of mark/free kicks he had where he then bombed it long to an outnumber. His role was solid, started on the bench (I believe) but by end of the half I had him tied for 2nd on CBA and he had a pure midfield role. He's that hard one to pick, he'll score because he does a lot of SC/Fantasy things really well but I'm not sure how long they can actually play him, probably benefits being in what still looks the clear worst team on paper in that they don't have a lot of options behind him that he's costing chances. He should make a good amount of cash in that role though and ultimately that's what it's about, looked fit and did pretty much exactly what you'd expect. I personally can't take a genuinely bad player because they're the easy scapegoats if early form demands changes but I think he'll more than likely be a solid pick.
Sicily - Looking at his fantasy score I assume he had a huge 2nd half because he was pretty incognito in the 1st. Took a couple of kick-ins and played the same role as last year. Don't really see anything from him to suggest he'd fall off or improve, should be in that+/- 5 point range of last year, I'd lean that the minus side is probably more likely just on starting point but should be a solid starting choice.
Reeves - His fantasy score was pretty accurate reflection of his first half for mine, no impact around the ground and beaten pretty soundly in the ruck.
Frost/Blanck/Jiath - All playing the defensive roles you'd expect from them.
Amon - Wing, was solid early, did very little in Q2 to my eye, FT score about in line with what I'd have put his HT score so assume he continued similarly.
Nash - Started in the middle, I didn't notice him return though, not sure if he was set for a tagging role and they binned it or what happened, basically took the first 3 (which were all on top of each other as Pies had 2 goals in first couple of minutes).
Day - Had a strong role, I had him 4th on CBA count for the half, I didn't see anything to suggest that actually helps his scoring, his best work was definitely around the ground in the first half but he looked solid and every role I've seen him float into this o***eason has been a good fantasy role. He's probably 80k too expensive for me but could see him push towards the 90s.
Moore - He was everywhere, TOG suggests he didn't play the 2nd half to me as his score was right in line with what I'd have put it at on the eye test. Played a pure HF role but pushing REALLY high up the ground, even into D50 to help out. I don't see any reason he can't back up last year or potentially even improve it. I'd prefer to have seen a midfield role this year for the upside side of things but could be a very handy unique pick.
Hardwick/Bramble - Both were taking kick-ins, I had them at 3 each to Sicily's 2, more a concern for Sicily than anything about them, I expect both push for 80s to low 90s range with no idea which will do better.
Meek - Genuine ruck share again, he's so much better around the ground it's a weird decision but just can't pick him in this situation. I wonder if they'd just ruck him one out if Lewis was fit as they seem to be trying to cover that injury with a ruck, I can't see it lasting too long as an experiment, neither can play forward at all and Reeves offers so little around the ground as well but if both are named round 1 it's too late for their fantasy. I'd be drafting Meek of the pair though for draft leagues, he's the much better player and surely wins a one out role eventually, Reeves needs a couple more years in a gym and at the reserves level to work on running patterns and positioning.
Wingard/Breust - Small forward roles, both played solidly, especially Wingard early.
Kosi - Manning a KPF post, was good in first half at least.
Ward - I really rate him, was playing a pretty pure wing role and did a solid job, like him much more than Worpel and he should be playing his role, imo, but perhaps Mitchell is trying to teach him something on a wing as it's definitely not in the team's best interest to play Worpel inside over Ward if winning is the goal.
Greene - He's a smart player, said it last week, still think it, just good at the stuff that is intelligence based, his leading patterns to create pockets for both himself and others, will do a lot of unrewarded work which isn't what we want. Think he's a clear best 22 guy though and he will have some decent scoring games. Was surprised how high he scored in this one, guessing a lot of 2nd half work on that front as my notes were around how well he positioned himself even if his midfielders rarely used him, sadly that's not likely to change a lot as they've got a fair few butchers running around ahead of him up the field. Pure bench option for me but a decent one.
Mackenzie - Easily the most impressive Hawk in the first half. He's basically everything that Worpel is not with the ball. Willing to take the contact to hold the ball longer to allow the timing on his disposal to work, steps into space to do the same, lowers his eyes for the best target. There was some Pendles about the way he played this game and his ability to buy that extra time on the disposal so that he can make the right one. I had him tied with Worpel for 2nd most CBA but I do feel like he benefitted a bit on this front by being there at the start, where there were 4 quickfire, and another patch in the 2nd quarter that was similar, basically it felt like he played less pure midfield time than the first half CBA count indicated. Based on his final score he looks to have backed it up in the 2nd half though which is a great sign. What I saw was a genuine on field rookie option. To me Cooper Stephens is the only guy out that really could mess with that role also and that's very speculative given his injury and lack of preseason games. Looks the goods, even at the premium.
MacDonald - Played half forward, was alright but nothing special, I'd guess he had a big 2nd half also based on scoring.
Maginness - Going to be a menace this year, HARD tag on N. Daicos in the first half at least, not even pretending to think about the ball. Expect that will be his role all season. Definitely worth looking at his early season targets this year, interesting they went the F50 tag rather than midfield tag in this game. Some obvious targets early include Merrett/Parish, LDU, Stewart, Jelly/Green/Whitfield/Cumming and Dawson/Laird. Definitely could be worth looking for overlap with Sydney and St Kilda given both were also repeated taggers last year.
None of the other Hawks that played had played in this half, so I'd suggest you're looking at very close to the best 22 here.
General - Watched the 1st half. This was utterly terrible to watch, just awful football, no physicality and to cap it off had to put up with Garry Lyon who somehow still has a job, is there anyone in the world who actually wants to listen to that moron other than him? Like he's got an annoying voice, he says nothing that adds value and talks SO much. Seriously though, the game itself was awful, looked like a flag game or circle work. Some stuff may have changed in the 2nd half, so buyer beware here. Interesting to see the fantasy scores this time and how they differ or match to my eye test, obviously hard with only a half watched also.
Hawks - Pathetic pressure levels but hung in the game, honestly felt like they dragged the Pies down to their level and then kind of beat them with experience at that level, CB were a big issue in the first half, not sure if that improved. Had a very close to best 22 group playing for mine.
Newcombe - Was very good on the spread, laid just about the only genuine tackle of the half so kudos to him. He looks really good, not sure how much he improves on last year but he's definitely worth an earlyish pick in draft comps and wouldn't be at all surprised if he pushed towards 110 range. I had him as their clear CBA leader and #1 midfielder by some distance.
Impey - Half back role to my eye, played decently in a game style that really suited him.
Worpel - His SC ratio is incredible, must have been amazing in the 2nd half. He's such a puzzling player, he's genuinely elite without the ball and in the discussion for the worst I've ever seen with it. I think the only times he even thought about where he kicked it in the entire half was the couple of mark/free kicks he had where he then bombed it long to an outnumber. His role was solid, started on the bench (I believe) but by end of the half I had him tied for 2nd on CBA and he had a pure midfield role. He's that hard one to pick, he'll score because he does a lot of SC/Fantasy things really well but I'm not sure how long they can actually play him, probably benefits being in what still looks the clear worst team on paper in that they don't have a lot of options behind him that he's costing chances. He should make a good amount of cash in that role though and ultimately that's what it's about, looked fit and did pretty much exactly what you'd expect. I personally can't take a genuinely bad player because they're the easy scapegoats if early form demands changes but I think he'll more than likely be a solid pick.
Sicily - Looking at his fantasy score I assume he had a huge 2nd half because he was pretty incognito in the 1st. Took a couple of kick-ins and played the same role as last year. Don't really see anything from him to suggest he'd fall off or improve, should be in that+/- 5 point range of last year, I'd lean that the minus side is probably more likely just on starting point but should be a solid starting choice.
Reeves - His fantasy score was pretty accurate reflection of his first half for mine, no impact around the ground and beaten pretty soundly in the ruck.
Frost/Blanck/Jiath - All playing the defensive roles you'd expect from them.
Amon - Wing, was solid early, did very little in Q2 to my eye, FT score about in line with what I'd have put his HT score so assume he continued similarly.
Nash - Started in the middle, I didn't notice him return though, not sure if he was set for a tagging role and they binned it or what happened, basically took the first 3 (which were all on top of each other as Pies had 2 goals in first couple of minutes).
Day - Had a strong role, I had him 4th on CBA count for the half, I didn't see anything to suggest that actually helps his scoring, his best work was definitely around the ground in the first half but he looked solid and every role I've seen him float into this o***eason has been a good fantasy role. He's probably 80k too expensive for me but could see him push towards the 90s.
Moore - He was everywhere, TOG suggests he didn't play the 2nd half to me as his score was right in line with what I'd have put it at on the eye test. Played a pure HF role but pushing REALLY high up the ground, even into D50 to help out. I don't see any reason he can't back up last year or potentially even improve it. I'd prefer to have seen a midfield role this year for the upside side of things but could be a very handy unique pick.
Hardwick/Bramble - Both were taking kick-ins, I had them at 3 each to Sicily's 2, more a concern for Sicily than anything about them, I expect both push for 80s to low 90s range with no idea which will do better.
Meek - Genuine ruck share again, he's so much better around the ground it's a weird decision but just can't pick him in this situation. I wonder if they'd just ruck him one out if Lewis was fit as they seem to be trying to cover that injury with a ruck, I can't see it lasting too long as an experiment, neither can play forward at all and Reeves offers so little around the ground as well but if both are named round 1 it's too late for their fantasy. I'd be drafting Meek of the pair though for draft leagues, he's the much better player and surely wins a one out role eventually, Reeves needs a couple more years in a gym and at the reserves level to work on running patterns and positioning.
Wingard/Breust - Small forward roles, both played solidly, especially Wingard early.
Kosi - Manning a KPF post, was good in first half at least.
Ward - I really rate him, was playing a pretty pure wing role and did a solid job, like him much more than Worpel and he should be playing his role, imo, but perhaps Mitchell is trying to teach him something on a wing as it's definitely not in the team's best interest to play Worpel inside over Ward if winning is the goal.
Greene - He's a smart player, said it last week, still think it, just good at the stuff that is intelligence based, his leading patterns to create pockets for both himself and others, will do a lot of unrewarded work which isn't what we want. Think he's a clear best 22 guy though and he will have some decent scoring games. Was surprised how high he scored in this one, guessing a lot of 2nd half work on that front as my notes were around how well he positioned himself even if his midfielders rarely used him, sadly that's not likely to change a lot as they've got a fair few butchers running around ahead of him up the field. Pure bench option for me but a decent one.
Mackenzie - Easily the most impressive Hawk in the first half. He's basically everything that Worpel is not with the ball. Willing to take the contact to hold the ball longer to allow the timing on his disposal to work, steps into space to do the same, lowers his eyes for the best target. There was some Pendles about the way he played this game and his ability to buy that extra time on the disposal so that he can make the right one. I had him tied with Worpel for 2nd most CBA but I do feel like he benefitted a bit on this front by being there at the start, where there were 4 quickfire, and another patch in the 2nd quarter that was similar, basically it felt like he played less pure midfield time than the first half CBA count indicated. Based on his final score he looks to have backed it up in the 2nd half though which is a great sign. What I saw was a genuine on field rookie option. To me Cooper Stephens is the only guy out that really could mess with that role also and that's very speculative given his injury and lack of preseason games. Looks the goods, even at the premium.
MacDonald - Played half forward, was alright but nothing special, I'd guess he had a big 2nd half also based on scoring.
Maginness - Going to be a menace this year, HARD tag on N. Daicos in the first half at least, not even pretending to think about the ball. Expect that will be his role all season. Definitely worth looking at his early season targets this year, interesting they went the F50 tag rather than midfield tag in this game. Some obvious targets early include Merrett/Parish, LDU, Stewart, Jelly/Green/Whitfield/Cumming and Dawson/Laird. Definitely could be worth looking for overlap with Sydney and St Kilda given both were also repeated taggers last year.
None of the other Hawks that played had played in this half, so I'd suggest you're looking at very close to the best 22 here.
Pies - Would think McRae would be pretty filthy here, can't envision they wanted such a bruise free half of footy, really hard to work out where you're at in those kind of scenarios. The positives for them were the CB work though, they dominated that area. Defensively they were awful, felt like Hawks scored on 2/3 F50 entries, their goal kicking was also somewhat problematic in the first half at least. Was interesting after last week when about half the side played midfield that they really tightened up their rotations this week, gives us a good indication where everyone is.
Lipinski - Pure forward role, looks like he got injured late. Played well but role no good.
De Goey - Pure midfield role, hard to see him getting DPP playing like that. He could theoretically score well enough to be a midfield premium but I wouldn't be betting on it. He looked great though, really dominated Q1 especially.
Quaynor/Frampton/Moore/Howe/Noble/Murphy - All playing the defensive roles you'd expect. None relevant, imo.
Elliott/Mihocek/McStay/McCreery - The forward equivalents.
Mitchell - Role was good, 1st midfield group, had him tied in 2nd for CBA, he also had a little bit of the MacKenzie inflated count going on though, it felt like he and Adams were about a 60/40 split around the ground but the count was 3:1 in Mitchell's favour. Role solid, played well. Don't love it though, think they've got too many guys for basically any of them to be super premium level, can see them definitely rolling with the hot hands which could be great one week but terrible the next. Very inside role, just hard to see him being a priority outside given their options. There are worse options but, imo, there's also better.
Jaicos/Sidebottom - Wing roles as expected, both were solid.
Pendles - Pure midfield role in H1 at least, no idea after that. Had him the 4th most CBA, about where he was in pecking order overall. Still a clear class above the rest though.
Adams - Started forward, could definitely get FWD status this year if it continues. Looks fit, played well, scored better than I expected so assume pretty decent 2nd half.
Cameron - Interesting to see the final scores. He was the #2 in the first half, albeit I had him with one more CBA (again, some weird balances here). He played alright in the first half but was surprised to see both the ratios and scores of the two rucks as, to my eye at least, Cox was clearly the better ruck in the first half, their best CB clearances were from Cox taps and he just was better in there and around the ground. It's a positive that Cameron scored well anyway. I can't start him in a ruck share though and that was basically confirmed again today.
Hill - Small forward role, not as high or as good as last week, scoring in this game probably pretty indicative of what he'll be like quite often if that's the role. Even more of an issue given Ginnivan is only out two weeks and will push someone out. Not for mine at his price and given a lot of other forward options at this point.
Crisp - Pure midfield role, can't see him getting DEF back based on this and last game to be honest. He played well but while I think it's not impossible I'd say I struggle to see his pathway to premium MID numbers, so not relevant right now.
Daicos - Hard tag, didn't fight it very much and they definitely weren't looking to show their hand of how they might deal with it when it comes in the season proper. Probably a clear indication he'll get tagged by Hawks in the real stuff at the very least, throw in Clark and you've got two likely tags already. They don't face either of those sides until round 8 though so could already have locked himself away safely before that if he works out. One of those very interesting games, took kick-ins, was at HB which most want to see (not I!), the tag confirms what most expected. Realistically this is one of those shake out games, the weak hands will fold, the strong hands will hold, folding is often the right decision so we will see. I'd say that most are picking based on last year though and he looks very fit and ready for a big year, half back tempers his range severely though for mine and definitely diminishes the value he has as a starting pick given the risk remains the same and the reward has been cut in half. The rollercoaster of preseason games
Cox - Thought he was the clear best ruck on the ground in the first half, didn't do much around the ground though, mostly just put his body in the way (in a good way) and brought the pill to ground. I don't think he's fantasy relevant other than killing Cameron but I think he scores decently as the #1 ruck if it sticks.
No other Pies played in the first half, so again, pretty strong indication of best 22, throw Maynard down as the only blatant best 22 missing I believe.
Lipinski - Pure forward role, looks like he got injured late. Played well but role no good.
De Goey - Pure midfield role, hard to see him getting DPP playing like that. He could theoretically score well enough to be a midfield premium but I wouldn't be betting on it. He looked great though, really dominated Q1 especially.
Quaynor/Frampton/Moore/Howe/Noble/Murphy - All playing the defensive roles you'd expect. None relevant, imo.
Elliott/Mihocek/McStay/McCreery - The forward equivalents.
Mitchell - Role was good, 1st midfield group, had him tied in 2nd for CBA, he also had a little bit of the MacKenzie inflated count going on though, it felt like he and Adams were about a 60/40 split around the ground but the count was 3:1 in Mitchell's favour. Role solid, played well. Don't love it though, think they've got too many guys for basically any of them to be super premium level, can see them definitely rolling with the hot hands which could be great one week but terrible the next. Very inside role, just hard to see him being a priority outside given their options. There are worse options but, imo, there's also better.
Jaicos/Sidebottom - Wing roles as expected, both were solid.
Pendles - Pure midfield role in H1 at least, no idea after that. Had him the 4th most CBA, about where he was in pecking order overall. Still a clear class above the rest though.
Adams - Started forward, could definitely get FWD status this year if it continues. Looks fit, played well, scored better than I expected so assume pretty decent 2nd half.
Cameron - Interesting to see the final scores. He was the #2 in the first half, albeit I had him with one more CBA (again, some weird balances here). He played alright in the first half but was surprised to see both the ratios and scores of the two rucks as, to my eye at least, Cox was clearly the better ruck in the first half, their best CB clearances were from Cox taps and he just was better in there and around the ground. It's a positive that Cameron scored well anyway. I can't start him in a ruck share though and that was basically confirmed again today.
Hill - Small forward role, not as high or as good as last week, scoring in this game probably pretty indicative of what he'll be like quite often if that's the role. Even more of an issue given Ginnivan is only out two weeks and will push someone out. Not for mine at his price and given a lot of other forward options at this point.
Crisp - Pure midfield role, can't see him getting DEF back based on this and last game to be honest. He played well but while I think it's not impossible I'd say I struggle to see his pathway to premium MID numbers, so not relevant right now.
Daicos - Hard tag, didn't fight it very much and they definitely weren't looking to show their hand of how they might deal with it when it comes in the season proper. Probably a clear indication he'll get tagged by Hawks in the real stuff at the very least, throw in Clark and you've got two likely tags already. They don't face either of those sides until round 8 though so could already have locked himself away safely before that if he works out. One of those very interesting games, took kick-ins, was at HB which most want to see (not I!), the tag confirms what most expected. Realistically this is one of those shake out games, the weak hands will fold, the strong hands will hold, folding is often the right decision so we will see. I'd say that most are picking based on last year though and he looks very fit and ready for a big year, half back tempers his range severely though for mine and definitely diminishes the value he has as a starting pick given the risk remains the same and the reward has been cut in half. The rollercoaster of preseason games
Cox - Thought he was the clear best ruck on the ground in the first half, didn't do much around the ground though, mostly just put his body in the way (in a good way) and brought the pill to ground. I don't think he's fantasy relevant other than killing Cameron but I think he scores decently as the #1 ruck if it sticks.
No other Pies played in the first half, so again, pretty strong indication of best 22, throw Maynard down as the only blatant best 22 missing I believe.
Thanks mate, and to @tso and @elzorko16. I have him in a keeper league, fingers crossed it’s not too serious.
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Dunkley - tick (beast)
Ashcroft - not even worth discussing, should be in 100% of teams.
Bruhn - genuinely looks like he has to be considered strongly. Should have a solid mid role in this Geelong team. Almost a perfect situation to take the next step in.
McKenna done enough nice things to show he should be a much needed player in Lions 22. At least should be given a few games early to establish that either way.
Ratugolea actually looked not bad 2nd half coming back from a huge hit too.
Ashcroft - not even worth discussing, should be in 100% of teams.
Bruhn - genuinely looks like he has to be considered strongly. Should have a solid mid role in this Geelong team. Almost a perfect situation to take the next step in.
McKenna done enough nice things to show he should be a much needed player in Lions 22. At least should be given a few games early to establish that either way.
Ratugolea actually looked not bad 2nd half coming back from a huge hit too.
