Analysis Benefits of Dual Positions Players (DPPs)

[Impromptu]

This article is an addendum to the interesting discussions in the main forum on the benefits of Dual Position Players (DPP) in SuperCoach 2013. For completeness, some of the comments in the main forum may be repeated in this article.

Dual Position Player (DPP) Trades

Before I proceed to the main article, t is appropriate to give a quick refresher on one of the main benefits of the DPP, namely the ability to trade a player of one position with another player of another position by moving or subbing a DPP to another position. This means you get the flexibility to trade out a player of the same position and also trade out a player of a different position of the player trading in.

To illustrate this, say you have Goddard (Def/Mid) in the midfield and Jed Bews (Def). Goddard, being a categorised as a Mid/Def rather than a Mid gives you more flexibility in trading out Bews (Def) demonstrated by the following:

• If it was Goddard (Mid), then Bews (Def) can only be traded for Player (Def)
• If it was Goddard (Mid/Def), then naturally Bews (Def) can be traded for Player (Def). However, Bews (Def) can also be traded for Player (Mid) even though Bews (Def) and Player (Mid) are of different positions. This trade of Bews (Def) to Player (Mid) is done by moving Goddard (Mid/Def) previously stationed at Mid to Def and trading Bews (Def) to Player (Mid).

Therefore, the benefit of having a Goddard (Mid/Def) in your team is not that Goddard can be traded, but its Goddard's pair or partner in the actual trade, ie Bews (Def) can be traded for a Mid as well as a Def. N ote that if Goddard (Def/Mid) was positioned in the Def rather than in the Mid, then Goddard's pair cannot be Bews(Def), but would have to be a Player (Mid), someone like Brad Crouch (Mid).

Dual Position Player (DPP) in Midfields

You can see with the example above that there is a benefit with Goddard being a DPP, regardless of whether Goddard is positioned in Mid or Def as all it means is that the Goddard's partner must be the opposite, such as:

• Goddard (Mid/Def) in Mid with Bews (Def)
• Goddard (Def/Mid) in Def with Crouch (Mid)

There is obviously no issue in Goddard being positioned in the Def as most SuperCoach teams would prefer not to use a Mid position if there was an alternative such as a DPP being positioned in non-Mid position. With so many DPPs in addition to Goddard such as Gibbs, Scotland, Harlett, Heppell etc, it is a given that we can trade out Crouch (Mid) to a Def and move Gibbs, Scotland and co to the Midfield.

However, some people may want the flexibility to trade out Bews (Def) for Player(Mid) as well as the usual Player(Def), which requires Goddard (Mid/Def) to be positioned in Mid.

Goddard(Def/Mid) playing in the Midfield

Selecting Goddard as a premium midfielder is a very bad decision as you are effectively wasting a premium midfield spot where you could have Goddard in the defence.

However, it should be noted that selecting Goddard(Mid/Def) as a midfielder is different to positioning Goddard (Mid/Def) in the Mid temporarily in your initial team. The reason is in the first scenario, Goddard actually takes a premium midfielder's spot, but in the second scenario, the same amount of premiums are on the field, however you simply have chosen an rookie defender over a rookie midfielder.

I think this was one of the main topics raised in the main forum, but there is a difference between picking Goddard in lieu of a Mid and positioning Goddard in the Mid.

Dual Position Players in SuperCoach 2013

Unfortunately, I believe the advantages of DPP have been dimished with the new SuperCoach Rule changes.

In the past, one of the benefits of the DPP, was that DPPs allowed us to get better cover through moving EMG to the appropriate risk position without the use of the trade. However, now with the Rolling Lockout, EMG are not as important as you can simply trade the player out if there is a late out (if need be) and as a consequence, DPPs are not as important for this reason. In addition, with the increase in trades allocation from 24 to 30, it reduces reliances on DPPs.

For me, in SuperCoach 2013, the DPP is more important for the 'Floating Donut' or when you have too many rookies you want in a particular position and you want to create one, then you move you DPPs to the midfield. Don't get me wrong there is still some value in DPPs for flexibility, but player selection is more important.

NOTE: post 1 to 19 was written before the article but merged

 

[Courtesans]

Hi Jay, can I suggest an explanation of the sub. trade rules introduced last year. There are suggestions that DDP links aren't that important, personally I disagree. Be that as it may, found DDP very useful more than once subbing players around when trading. Might not be known by some of the newer players, certainly something to be aware of. A Merry Christmas to you.

 

[Zim^zuM]

They can be useful but what I'm saying is I won't pick Menzel over viney because of dpp for round one. Nor do I think it's worth having Gibbs or Goddard in the midfield. Or rockliff for example in your mid.

 

[BC]

Yep, Goddard and Gibbs both in top 5 defenders, if played as a mid maybe 6-10 in scoring

 

[IDIG]

I think closer to top 10-15 for them and maybe averaging 100-105?

Has anyone put some real thought into what the super 18 i think its called n what it means for us strategically with trades during mbrs?

 

[Rowsus]

I think closer to top 10-15 for them and maybe averaging 100-105?

Has anyone put some real thought into what the super 18 i think its called n what it means for us strategically with trades during mbrs?

Given the number of trades we have this year, and the restriction of 18 players scoring in that round, I think there will be a lot people using a sideways trade strategy during the byes. A lot will depend on how close you are to completing your team, and what situation the rookies, inside and outside your team, are in. Have you 18 premiums? Then side trading might be ok. Are there any rookies on the bubble you want and need? That will probably determine a lot of decisions too. Unlike last year, when you could formulate a more solid plan, in 2013 I think you are going to have to do more planning on the run during the byes, than you did last year. At the moment, I'm thinking it will be slightly team building, slightly sideways for me, but unlike last year, it's too early to commit.

 

[Zim^zuM]

With my current draft team I've gone for Jp Kennedy over pendles because of mbr.

 

[3rdMonkey]

Having Goddard in your mids for R1 doesn't mean you'll still have Goddard in your mids come R14. As Courtesans said, the DPP link is about flexibility & coverage.

For initial DPP examples:

1. Say you have 5 premium/5 rookie midfield & 4p/4r back line. You have a m/d rookie in the mids & a few m/d premiums in the backs. If you think your 3rd best back rookie will out score your 3rd best mid rookie, you'd swap Goddard into your midfield R1.

2. If you have no m/d rookie, you may still pick a m/d premium in your mids for R1 as having any m/d link allows an optional trading benefit, example being:
After R2, you realise you've missed a gun mid rookie. One of your back rookies is not the best. You trade out your back rookie, sub the m/d premium (eg Goddard) from your mids to your backs & buy the gun mid rookie with only 1 trade.

3. As Courtesans has said, you'll need to have backup to ensure you have 8 mids playing each week. 8/10 is 80% must play each week. Def & Fwd only 6/8 (75%) & Ruck 2/4 (50%). With a DPP link between M/D (&/or M/F), you spread this out to be closer to needing only 20/26 playing in total, or even 22/30 total with the right DPP links between all positions.

It reduces your reliance on 8/10 mids playing each week & greatly assists you in playing your best 22 available players each week. Helps you avoid having a good sub stuck as emergency in one position while having a poor sub, or no sub available in, say, the mids.

Does that all make sense?

 

[Rowsus]

Having Goddard in your mids for R1 doesn't mean you'll still have Goddard in your mids come R14. As Courtesans said, the DPP link is about flexibility & coverage.

For initial DPP examples:

1. Say you have 5 premium/5 rookie midfield & 4p/4r back line. You have a m/d rookie in the mids & a few m/d premiums in the backs. If you think your 3rd best back rookie will out score your 3rd best mid rookie, you'd swap Goddard into your midfield R1.

2. If you have no m/d rookie, you may still pick a m/d premium in your mids for R1 as having any m/d link allows an optional trading benefit, example being:
After R2, you realise you've missed a gun mid rookie. One of your back rookies is not the best. You trade out your back rookie, sub the m/d premium (eg Goddard) from your mids to your backs & buy the gun mid rookie with only 1 trade.

3. As Courtesans has said, you'll need to have backup to ensure you have 8 mids playing each week. 8/10 is 80% must play each week. Def & Fwd only 6/8 (75%) & Ruck 2/4 (50%). With a DPP link between M/D (&/or M/F), you spread this out to be closer to needing only 20/26 playing in total, or even 22/30 total with the right DPP links between all positions.

It reduces your reliance on 8/10 mids playing each week & greatly assists you in playing your best 22 available players each week. Helps you avoid having a good sub stuck as emergency in one position while having a poor sub, or no sub available in, say, the mids.

Does that all make sense?

Perfectly explained, and makes a lot of sense. I've tried to explain to some people here that you don't lose points by having a DPP M/F or D/M sitting in your Mid in the first part of the season. I even explained about shifting them down later, so they're not taking a spot from a true Mid Premium. Some of them won't be convinced, though, no matter how you explain it. They will say "If you have Rockliff sitting in your Midfield, even in R1, he is taking a Midfield spot from someone who would score better". It's had me nearly tearing my hair out sometimes, but usually just shaking my head. It's just simple maths, but they don't see it. I also explained if you have Rockliff sitting in your Mid, it just means you have an extra Fwd Rookie, instead of an extra Mid Rookie. Nope, still wasting a Mid spot on a non-Mid Premium....... Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Hopefully the ones I'm talking about read your explanation, understand it a bit better. I will admit I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts sometimes.
Good Job, 3rd.

 

[IDIG]

Given the number of trades we have this year, and the restriction of 18 players scoring in that round, I think there will be a lot people using a sideways trade strategy during the byes. A lot will depend on how close you are to completing your team, and what situation the rookies, inside and outside your team, are in. Have you 18 premiums? Then side trading might be ok. Are there any rookies on the bubble you want and need? That will probably determine a lot of decisions too. Unlike last year, when you could formulate a more solid plan, in 2013 I think you are going to have to do more planning on the run during the byes, than you did last year. At the moment, I'm thinking it will be slightly team building, slightly sideways for me, but unlike last year, it's too early to commit.

Yep think you've hit on the head...and to be honest, i felt i had a solid team set up for the byes last year but it all fell apart anyway with the unforseeables. Next year, i think we'll find hyper aggressive trading by the winner and a lot of out of the square thinking which will probably make analysis an absolute nightmare (even for you! ).

With my current draft team I've gone for Jp Kennedy over pendles because of mbr.

JPK is becoming more and more appealing to me, ramped his sc average from to 81 -> 96 - > 120 over the last 3 years.

Has GWS and GC, rounds 1 and 2 (and gws again in round 16), is a r12 bye player and only coming into his 4th full season. So much upside and PODness its not funny. Only downside i really see is his last 4 weeks against the pies, saints, cats and hawks although judging by last years numbers it really didn't affect him.

 

[Zim^zuM]

Having Goddard in your mids for R1 doesn't mean you'll still have Goddard in your mids come R14. As Courtesans said, the DPP link is about flexibility & coverage.

For initial DPP examples:

1. Say you have 5 premium/5 rookie midfield & 4p/4r back line. You have a m/d rookie in the mids & a few m/d premiums in the backs. If you think your 3rd best back rookie will out score your 3rd best mid rookie, you'd swap Goddard into your midfield R1.

2. If you have no m/d rookie, you may still pick a m/d premium in your mids for R1 as having any m/d link allows an optional trading benefit, example being:
After R2, you realise you've missed a gun mid rookie. One of your back rookies is not the best. You trade out your back rookie, sub the m/d premium (eg Goddard) from your mids to your backs & buy the gun mid rookie with only 1 trade.

3. As Courtesans has said, you'll need to have backup to ensure you have 8 mids playing each week. 8/10 is 80% must play each week. Def & Fwd only 6/8 (75%) & Ruck 2/4 (50%). With a DPP link between M/D (&/or M/F), you spread this out to be closer to needing only 20/26 playing in total, or even 22/30 total with the right DPP links between all positions.

It reduces your reliance on 8/10 mids playing each week & greatly assists you in playing your best 22 available players each week. Helps you avoid having a good sub stuck as emergency in one position while having a poor sub, or no sub available in, say, the mids.

Does that all make sense?

I'm fully aware of the possible advantages etc, I'm not one of those that doesnt know the full extent of it's capabilities. I can be very handy and just as easily can not be so handy. for me personally ive always had the dpp link and its only ever benifited me on the trade table. It may prove to be handy with the rolling lockout. But sometimes it is sometimes it is not.

I fully understand you can move them down back later and upgrade a DEF rookie for a MID etc. My first few draft had Gibbs in the MID. I personally found it a waste. All I've been saying when it comes to rookies I will pick the better player. I'll go with the DPP if its 50/50.

The changes to the lineup are not that huge. I dont think having 8 MIDS play is more difficult than previous years. If anything its easier finding two rookie mids to play instead of an extra Def or fwd rookie. Esp this season in terms of fwds.

I'm not against DPP and look to have them in my team. But atm I only know of menzel as a M/F. And I will not waste a MID spot on Rockliff, Martin etc.... Yes I know they can be moved later, but I see no benifit in having them in MID for round 1.

Becasue say I have Rockliff in MID instead of FWD and he is out for one game. If I swap him for Martin I still have to start the FWD rookie instead of the MID and the MID always has more potential.

So in conclusion I think to start off with it's not that important. However towards the end I like to have every line linked when trades are thin and it may save you a donut. But one week at a time, anything can happen, and it usually does.

 

[BC]

Having Goddard in your mids for R1 doesn't mean you'll still have Goddard in your mids come R14. As Courtesans said, the DPP link is about flexibility & coverage.




After R2, you realise you've missed a gun mid rookie. One of your back rookies is not the best. You trade out your back rookie, sub the m/d premium (eg Goddard) from your mids to your backs & buy the gun mid rookie with only 1 trade.

I didnt really bother about the dpp links last year as i just played sc with a group of mates in there league.
so basically im a novice to your above example.
i thought when u trade that back rookie you have to select the player your bringing in straight away and then hit continue.
And when you sub goddard to the mid bench how do you drag him to your backline?
sorry guys a stupid question for all of you i no, but i've never done it

 

[OzRulesFootball]

I didnt really bother about the dpp links last year as i just played sc with a group of mates in there league.
so basically im a novice to your above example.
i thought when u trade that back rookie you have to select the player your bringing in straight away and then hit continue.
And when you sub goddard to the mid bench how do you drag him to your backline?
sorry guys a stupid question for all of you i no, but i've never done it

Goddard in MID with DEF category possible via back rookie.. lets say Blee for example.. just DEF and chose at start of season and not playing

click on Blee to trade....
then allows you to swap any players already in squad that eligible to play DEF to take Blee spot..
Can't remember graphics of the website how it looks but that is the process..
Click Blee 1st to trade.. then before chosing a player out of your squad you swap WITHIN...
So Goddard goes to DEF.. which then leaves a MID spot vacant...
it will then show options of players you can trade for with what is within your salary cap with Blee cost included as part of it... He is out going player... Incoming is a MID rookie on the bubble in 3rd monkey's example... lets say Hrovat for an example.. gets off to flyer but not in your starting squad... you see his price is likely to have big jump after round 3 meanwhile your dud defense rookie Blee not even played yet... so you decide trade one def rookie out for a more profiting mid rookie and do it by using the Goddard DEF/MID premium you placed in MID for flexibility..

 

[BC]

Got ya thanks mate, didn't know about the within part cheers

 

[BuddyLove]

Perfectly explained, and makes a lot of sense. I've tried to explain to some people here that you don't lose points by having a DPP M/F or D/M sitting in your Mid in the first part of the season. I even explained about shifting them down later, so they're not taking a spot from a true Mid Premium. Some of them won't be convinced, though, no matter how you explain it. They will say "If you have Rockliff sitting in your Midfield, even in R1, he is taking a Midfield spot from someone who would score better". It's had me nearly tearing my hair out sometimes, but usually just shaking my head. It's just simple maths, but they don't see it. I also explained if you have Rockliff sitting in your Mid, it just means you have an extra Fwd Rookie, instead of an extra Mid Rookie. Nope, still wasting a Mid spot on a non-Mid Premium....... Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Hopefully the ones I'm talking about read your explanation, understand it a bit better. I will admit I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts sometimes.
Good Job, 3rd.

Hypothetical question for you rowsus...

Lets pretend that
1. DPP's no longer exist
2. You think that Rockliff is great value
3. There is a glitch in the VS system and you are given the option to pick Rockliff as a pure midfielder OR as a pure forward

Q. Do you pick him as a mid or fwd? And why?

 

[Impromptu]

LOL I think everyone is correct, but I think there are different proposals/submissions here. Let me explain.

 

[Goodie's Guns]

Goddard in MID with DEF category possible via back rookie.. lets say Blee for example.. just DEF and chose at start of season and not playing

click on Blee to trade....
then allows you to swap any players already in squad that eligible to play DEF to take Blee spot..
Can't remember graphics of the website how it looks but that is the process..
Click Blee 1st to trade.. then before chosing a player out of your squad you swap WITHIN...
So Goddard goes to DEF.. which then leaves a MID spot vacant...
it will then show options of players you can trade for with what is within your salary cap with Blee cost included as part of it... He is out going player... Incoming is a MID rookie on the bubble in 3rd monkey's example... lets say Hrovat for an example.. gets off to flyer but not in your starting squad... you see his price is likely to have big jump after round 3 meanwhile your dud defense rookie Blee not even played yet... so you decide trade one def rookie out for a more profiting mid rookie and do it by using the Goddard DEF/MID premium you placed in MID for flexibility..

Well explained mate, difficult to grasp if you didn't pick up on it from the start of the 2012 season. Is a very handy tool up your sleeve I believe and is essentially 2 trades in one if you work it well, I used it quite a lot last season.

 

[Rowsus]

Hypothetical question for you rowsus...

Lets pretend that
1. DPP's no longer exist
2. You think that Rockliff is great value
3. There is a glitch in the VS system and you are given the option to pick Rockliff as a pure midfielder OR as a pure forward

Q. Do you pick him as a mid or fwd? And why?

To me it is simple. Given there are more better scoring opportunities in the Mid, than the Fwd, the more high scorers you can place in your Fwd, the more space you have for the better scorers in your Mid.
Fortunately, we have flexibility, so you can pick him Mid, if that suites your team better, and switch him back later in the season.
So to answer your question, in that scenario you pick him Fwd. In normal circumstances, where he best suites your structure.

 

[BuddyLove]

To me it is simple. Given there are more better scoring opportunities in the Mid, than the Fwd, the more high scorers you can place in your Fwd, the more space you have for the better scorers in your Mid.
Fortunately, we have flexibility, so you can pick him Mid, if that suites your team better, and switch him back later in the season.
So to answer your question, in that scenario you pick him Fwd. In normal circumstances, where he best suites your structure.

Exactly

So it really comes down to a matter of opinion as to where you get the biggest advantage
Player selection or DPP flexibility

Would be nice to get jays opinion on this (maybe a full article) as from memory his 2012 starting team had a few DPP's selected in the midfield???

 

[Impromptu]

Exactly

So it really comes down to a matter of opinion as to where you get the biggest advantage
Player selection or DPP flexibility

Would be nice to get jays opinion on this (maybe a full article) as from memory his 2012 starting team had a few DPP's selected in the midfield???

Due to the wonderful and healthy debate, I'll write an article about this shortly and also go through my strategy in 2012. Comments wil be merged from this thread.