Discussion 2024 Round 9: Teams & In Game Discussion

[OnTopBar]

7/750

Plan was to trade Roberts this week, but had to keep him due to an impending donut if I didn't and because of that donut also traded out Yeo > Butters so a bit of swings and roundabouts.

 

[donnybuang]

I genuinely don’t understand why people do SC and then complain about the scoring mechanism that defines SC. If you don’t like it stick to other formats but it’s not like they changed things on you part way through the season - it is what it is!

This is the crux of it. Just pick the guys that have high SCT ratios.



Personally, I prefer to complain about premos who turn to when they come in to my team 😆😆

 

[Peter56]

As one of the 19,739 people that traded Ryan in this week I am more than happy with his last quarter. I thought I had broken my new toy.
I should have read the instructions before I started playing with it, as I did not realise that it needs so long to warm up before it operates at the correct speed. 😁

 

[jel]

9 / 996
I'll pass on Ryan as VC and put my faith into Bont/Daicos.

 

[jel]

Re the Ryan conversation. If he had done what he did in the last quarter in the first quarter of a game it's a 70 point quarter easily so his influence that quarter was negatively scaled.

I find it more interesting to look at what a player like Ryan did without the free kick out stat, which we got to witness during the first half where, with 0 kickouts, he was only on 30.

As I've said in previous round threads, this is the stat that SC / CD should look at (my solution was given kick outs are recorded as a separate stat, make the points scored from this stat 50% less). I love the scoring system and find any accusations of biased scoring humourous, but it also doesn't sit well with me that Ryan is the highest averaging player after round 8. Anyway, just food for thought!

I guess they'll change how it's counted if the clubs see value in having it recorded differently. After all, they're the primary customer for CD.

 

[Maccas marvels]

Keep Graham and take Draper's E of 52, or edit my trade of Comben out to Graham and play him on field instead.

Ideally I want to keep Graham but not sure if he's likely to come straight back in?

Been playing well, would imagine he is back in next week…Dimma said he was going to rotate a few of them..

 

[donnybuang]

I guess they'll change how it's counted if the clubs see value in having it recorded differently. After all, they're the primary customer for CD.

Clubs would just want the raw stats and game context though right? Surely they don't care about the sugar applied to SC scoring for a fantasy game.

 

[Maccas marvels]

1123/11…
So so start to the round…Serong, Butters putting up great numbers…
kept Roberts which appears an error…been one of our best rookies so far so kept the faith…
Bont VC tonight has a great record against the tigers and Daicos Captain but hopefully not required,…

 

[Munkea]

Clubs would just want the raw stats and game context though right? Surely they don't care about the sugar applied to SC scoring for a fantasy game.

I'm sure they still find the data useful as a baseline value for how a player performs. You see commentators often refer to the player ratings (SC Score) during broadcasts, and I'm sure coaches are more than aware too.

Similar analysis by champion data has been driven by clubs such as the "pressure gauge", which gives clubs and idea how how their player's pressure acts are influencing how difficult they are making it for an opponent to score.

 

[donnybuang]

I'm sure they still find the data useful as a baseline value for how a player performs. You see commentators often refer to the player ratings (SC Score) during broadcasts, and I'm sure coaches are more than aware too.

Similar analysis by champion data has been driven by clubs such as the "pressure gauge", which gives clubs and idea how how their player's pressure acts are influencing how difficult they are making it for an opponent to score.

Yeah, to an extent I guess, I'd imagine when clubs rewatch the tape, they'd study the intangibles a bit more closely.

 

[donnybuang]

8/782 l9ng weekend ahead.
No Serong or Butters killing me most weeks. Have to start saving i think.

 

[Zim^zuM]

Like a said.. don’t get why people do SC and then complain the things that define it. Inconsistency and judgement calls are a hall mark of an impact based system. Just do AFL fantasy if you want something black and white. SC is grey.. embrace it or don’t but they aren’t making you do it.
FWIW I don’t think a person would risk their job deliberately making errors because the like certain players. It’s more likely there are things influencing those decisions you aren’t aware of.

For example, here is the definition of a HTA as per champion data:


Hitout-To-Advantage: A hitout that reaches an intended teammate

So Gawn hitting to grass to a running Petracca could be very different to Marshall hitting to space and hoping a player gets to it. The people at CD would be pretty skilled at identifying if it looked like an intended play or a fortuitous outcome from the HO. There would be thousands of these nuances and we will never know them all.. so either accept it is the game or don’t play it!

Or maybe we just don't know when they allocate the HO advantage to Marshall. By the time they confirm the points mayb other things have also happened and been applied/deducted.

I was under the original understanding that the reason we originally didn't have live scoring, and just qtr by qtr, was because of how difficult it was to actually do live scoring and have it accurate live. And it was to avoid this type of confusion. And in the end they have had to try have live scoring because of demand, other formats having it, a reason to sell more subscriptions.

 

[GrainFedBeef]

Re the Ryan conversation. If he had done what he did in the last quarter in the first quarter of a game it's a 70 point quarter easily so his influence that quarter was negatively scaled.

I find it more interesting to look at what a player like Ryan did without the free kick out stat, which we got to witness during the first half where, with 0 kickouts, he was only on 30.

As I've said in previous round threads, this is the stat that SC / CD should look at (my solution was given kick outs are recorded as a separate stat, make the points scored from this stat 50% less). I love the scoring system and find any accusations of biased scoring humourous, but it also doesn't sit well with me that Ryan is the highest averaging player after round 8. Anyway, just food for thought!

I mean this is the nicest way, spoken like someone who has never played full back and kicked the ball out.

Not all kickouts and equal. Where I agree is maybe the should be more nuances in the type of kick out and result. 40m to a player is worth more than a 50m to a contest or 15m to the back pocket.

 

[Zoku Pops]

I mean this is the nicest way, spoken like someone who has never played full back and kicked the ball out.

Not all kickouts and equal. Where I agree is maybe the should be more nuances in the type of kick out and result. 40m to a player is worth more than a 50m to a contest or 15m to the back pocket.

I took 1 in my 100 game career so definitely not a subject expert but I completely agree, which is why if they simply applied a % reduction on the actual value of the kick then the above is still rewarded.

Back in the day, an effective kick out from the goal square was worth 1 point. Only when it was marked uncontested by a teammate outside 50 was it rewarded 5-6 points. I liked this approach, but the new walk out of the square rule changed things as the stats and scoring system is now just registering the kick outs as normal kicks.

 

[GrainFedBeef]

I have no problem with the scoring mechanism, i do have a problem with the inconsistency. I.e Gawn gets HOTA for hitting it to grass and a teammate running 5 meters to gather it, Marshall does the same thing, never a HOTA. And i am watching this VERY closely. Happens a lot with what they consider a contested mark etc as well, some players get preferrential treatment.

Our job as coaches is to understand nuances of the game. so I ask you this, if you think Gawn is a cheat code and getting HOTA when other players don't, why don't you have Gawn in your side!

Like a said.. don’t get why people do SC and then complain the things that define it. Inconsistency and judgement calls are a hall mark of an impact based system. Just do AFL fantasy if you want something black and white. SC is grey.. embrace it or don’t but they aren’t making you do it.
FWIW I don’t think a person would risk their job deliberately making errors because the like certain players. It’s more likely there are things influencing those decisions you aren’t aware of.

For example, here is the definition of a HTA as per champion data:


Hitout-To-Advantage: A hitout that reaches an intended teammate

So Gawn hitting to grass to a running Petracca could be very different to Marshall hitting to space and hoping a player gets to it. The people at CD would be pretty skilled at identifying if it looked like an intended play or a fortuitous outcome from the HO. There would be thousands of these nuances and we will never know them all.. so either accept it is the game or don’t play it!

This is helpful. I always wondered whether if the ball bounces and mid picks it up, does the ruck get a HOTA. There in lies you answer @MagpiePotato who do you think has the better midfielders and would be positioning correctly. Melb is way ahead of Saints with Petracca and Oliver and friends.

Plus

Ruck contests - Gawn averages 15% more ruck contests (10 more) per game than Marshall. This could be being more of a lead ruckman due to fitness or a more stoppage game by Melb.

Hit out wins - Gawn averages 30% more (or 1000bps more 37% to 47%) hit out wins.

HOTA - Gawn average 15% more HOTA win %, 28% to 25%.

SO even if you think Gawn gets the benefit of dodgy50/50 calls, he puts himself in the opportunity to get the dodgy call roughly 36 times per game to 20. That is 80% more opportunities for dodgy 50/50 calls.

16 more events, roughly 8 are HTA, that's 32 more points per game. Also stands up and takes the big contested grabs more than Marshall which if an intercept down the line is worth 4x on points.

If I had concerns on Gawn it was more he would fade as the season goes on, typically they like to rest him more in middle of season and let 2nd ruckman step up, so he is fresh for finals. lets see if that happens without Jackson or Grundy.

 

[GrainFedBeef]

I took 1 in my 100 game career so definitely not a subject expert but I completely agree, which is why if they simply applied a % reduction on the actual value of the kick then the above is still rewarded.

Back in the day, an effective kick out from the goal square was worth 1 point. Only when it was marked uncontested by a teammate outside 50 was it rewarded 5-6 points. I liked this approach, but the new walk out of the square rule changed things as the stats and scoring system is now just registering the kick outs as normal kicks.

Agree, a better rule is ignore whether the player steps outside the square or not and change up the range of points for type of kick in result.

Had did you go with the kick in when you had the chance? I had one year where I studied Shannon Hurn and so would run out from the back right corner if playing on. 25m kick to player (within box) if at 2 o'clock and long kick (only 30m) from front left to ruckman to 10pm.

 

[Zim^zuM]

Agree, a better rule is ignore whether the player steps outside the square or not and change up the range of points for type of kick in result.

Had did you go with the kick in when you had the chance? I had one year where I studied Shannon Hurn and so would run out from the back right corner if playing on. 25m kick to player (within box) if at 2 o'clock and long kick (only 30m) from front left to ruckman to 10pm.

Hopefully it was better than the time Tim English took a kick out

 

[Zim^zuM]

With Fyfe getting a 60 I'm going to swing Powell back at M8 for Reville and then trade Reville to Jones and get the guaranteed price jump. Hopefully Powell beats 60 too.

 

[Monya Meow Meow]

I now finally know how owning Serong feels like.
Roberts to Serong felt so good!

Huge mistake not starting him this season but glad it's been rectified.

Next week will be the time to correct another mistake.
Heeney or Butters

 

[7/11]

I took 1 in my 100 game career so definitely not a subject expert but I completely agree, which is why if they simply applied a % reduction on the actual value of the kick then the above is still rewarded.

Back in the day, an effective kick out from the goal square was worth 1 point. Only when it was marked uncontested by a teammate outside 50 was it rewarded 5-6 points. I liked this approach, but the new walk out of the square rule changed things as the stats and scoring system is now just registering the kick outs as normal kicks.

Think it’d be easier if they just scored it as:

1 point for kick
2 points for hitting a target under 40m
2 extra points for hitting a target over 40m (contested or not)

If they hit no one, lose the point for the kick. If they turn it directly over to the opponent it’s -2 regardless of whether it was contested or not. The point of an effective kick is that it was to the advantage of your teammate, if you aren’t good enough to hit them lace out, you shouldn’t be rewarded for just hoofing it forward.

The ambiguity of scoring these points for some players won’t occur if the blanket rule is if there are only two situations in which extra points occur.

If it’s a free kick to opponent, count kick as effective.