Discussion SC 2021: Starting Structure

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#41
4-0-4
5-1-4
1-1-1
2-3-3

First time in many years I'm contemplating a mid price ruck and the only reason is I fancy Preuss to do well. I'll probably end up with both Gawn and Grundy as I thing Grundy has upside assuming a normal playing environment and no hubs - it saves a lot of trades and heartache.
 
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#43
Absolutely right Herbie, rookies are short in supply in last few years, leads us to greater changes in the 1st weekend of football after fiddled with our structure endlessly.

At this stage rather than pushing envelope too hard in putting cheap rookies in side, i have a lot of the $200-250k injury returning players. That alone comes with risk.

Hopefully this year I will go in with more of a plan of where my alternatives are, including if I need an extra premium.

At this stage, a rowell or walsh can be downgraded freeing up $150k if needed. Martin or dunkley would be next picked in forward line.

The challenge is always any late changes because of lack of rookies leads to a pairs trade, someone usually downgraded on one line to spend more in another line. My current risk is if a daniher, brown dont play, the lower priced option is not evident.

Cooling on a lot of the breakouts myself, thought the comments on rozee were bearish, looked at caldwell junior numbers and unimpressed.
This is why I like to try and have an average price on placeholder rookies in that 150k+ range. Can then be a lot more flexible.
 
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#44
I have done some Excel modelling of the two alternative SC starting strategies - Guns & Rookies vs Mid-Pricers or so-called Mid-Price Madness to see how they play out across a mock season.
These are the two starting line-ups I will use in the analysis. (Using round numbers there is an insignificant differences in the total spend and thru the rest of the number-crunching). All players are assigned to 5 categories (at the start) and both teams have $9M on the field & $1M on their bench. In these score-tables the middle columns represent the original price paid for the players.

1613187123573.png
Using the 2021 Magic Number (MN) of ~5374 these starting line-ups will necessarily generate the same total weekly score of 1800 as follows.
s
1613187182049.png

Now the assumptions I’ve used for the modelling.
  • A-Rookies are priced to score at about 32.6 (175000/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 60ppg. This will see A-Rooks move towards a price of $300,000.
  • B-Rookies are priced to score at about 23.3 (125000/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 49ppg. This will see B-Rooks move towards a price of $240,000.
  • Mids are priced to score at about 71.7 (385300/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 81.5ppg. The assumption is that all mids will be selected based on their perceived value at the start of the season. So, we are looking for 17 players who we think can score roughly 10 ppg better than their price range. This will allow the Mids to move towards a price of $430,000.
  • All other scoring is as per the price paid (Salary/MN)
  • Both teams have 3 big-guns from with to choose a captain. So allowing for 125ppg it is close to their nominal weekly score.
  • Price rises will be achieved after 8 completed rounds.
  • When a trading out B-Rooks they will have reached their $240K price level even if they have been brought in later in the season.
  • Byes are not taken into account.
  • Trading commences for both teams in round 9 – when starting rookies reach their maximum values.
The scoring assumptions, at 1-3 above, have been chosen because they are not unreasonable, but primarily so that both teams acquire ~425 free/value/bonus points. G&R… 8 X (60-32.6) + 8 X (49-23.3) and MPM… 17 X (81.5-71.7) + 2 X (60-32.6) + 8 X (49-23.3) This proves to be very instructive. I have also selected three big-guns for the MPM line-up to neutralise the captaincy issue and also because there is another 125 free points in there somewhere.
When factoring in assumptions 1-3 the 1800 point score-tables above rise and both teams are now projected to score ~2020 pts for the first 8 rounds.
1613187293387.png
At Round 9 both teams start trading out their fully fattened A-Rooks – 2 @ 300K and replace them (on the field) with a new B-Rook @ 125K & an Upgraded A-Rook @475K (ARU-Mid). This is the result for Round 9 – both teams boost their weekly score by 18 pts.
1613187383752.png

Now MPM doesn’t have any A-Rooks and has to adopt a different trading tactic while G&R doesn’t have much choice but to keep upgrading 2 more A-Rooks. MPM sell off one of their fully fattened B-Rooks – 1 @ 240K and one of their fully fattened Mids @ $430K replacing them with a new bench B-Rook @ 125K & a Gun @ 545K. This is the result for Round 10.
1613187468136.png

Again the scores are virtually the same and continue on this way with the same trading pattern– this is the round 12 result - after G&R have sold off all of their A-Rooks. The scores are continuing to increase in tandem. You will notice that the purchase price totals start to diverge, but the MPM side doesn’t trade out as many of its bonus points, so the scoring stays on a par.
1613187575020.png
Now G&R start cashing out their fattened B-Rooks 2 @ $240K for a new bench B-Rook @ $125K & a new upgraded mid @ $355K (BRU-Mid). It will take G&R 4 rounds to bring in enough of these upgrade mids to remove all on-field rookies. Meanwhile MPM keeps upgrading a $385K Mid to a $535K Gun each week. This is the Round 13 result.
1613187679159.png
This table reflects the scores after 3 more trading iterations - at Round 16.
1613187884455.png
There are slight rounding di*** in my figurework that makes it look like MPM is just in front – but basically the teams stay in lock-step – under these value assumptions. Also, both teams have used the same number of trades.

If my workings hold up, it seems to me that there is no answer to the question of which is the better starting strategy. It seems to be the wrong question. (This isn’t what I was originally expecting, but the more you think thru the maths, the more it makes sense.) The real issue is perhaps how much value you can pack into your starting team.

In this analysis, if MPM could squeeze another bonus point out of their mids – go from 81.5 to 82.5ppg, it would be hundreds of points ahead of G&R by now. Similarly, if we have a season with lots of great available rookies then the G&R A-Rooks could be expected to achieve more than 60ppg, and then they would edge ahead.

I don’t have much evidence to support my 10ppg bonus for Mid-Pricers, but I think the assumptions about Rooks are reasonable – refer to posts 1823 – 1845 in the thread - Super Early Strategy, Team & Player Discussions.

If it is ultimately all about value selections, then the start of the season is the point at which most value options are on the table. As the season wears on, each week there will be just a few rookies reaching their bubble and just a few injury-affected prices, but most players will be quickly priced to their scoring levels.

PS. This is the sort of exercise in which you always make some sort of math error, so I have checked it thru a few times. Hopefully there’s no serious bugs in there – as I said the results play out in a way that I think is mathematically logical.
 
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#45
I have done some Excel modelling of the two alternative SC starting strategies - Guns & Rookies vs Mid-Pricers or so-called Mid-Price Madness to see how they play out across a mock season.
These are the two starting line-ups I will use in the analysis. (Using round numbers there is an insignificant differences in the total spend and thru the rest of the number-crunching). All players are assigned to 5 categories (at the start) and both teams have $9M on the field & $1M on their bench. In these score-tables the middle columns represent the original price paid for the players.

View attachment 26093
Using the 2021 Magic Number (MN) of ~5374 these starting line-ups will necessarily generate the same total weekly score of 1800 as follows.

Now the assumptions I’ve used for the modelling.
  • A-Rookies are priced to score at about 32.6 (175000/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 60ppg. This will see A-Rooks move towards a price of $300,000.
  • B-Rookies are priced to score at about 23.3 (125000/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 49ppg. This will see B-Rooks move towards a price of $240,000.
  • Mids are priced to score at about 71.7 (385300/MN) but in the model we allow them to score at 81.5ppg. The assumption is that all mids will be selected based on their perceived value at the start of the season. So, we are looking for 17 players who we think can score roughly 10 ppg better than their price range. This will allow the Mids to move towards a price of $430,000.
  • All other scoring is as per the price paid (Salary/MN)
  • Both teams have 3 big-guns from with to choose a captain. So allowing for 125ppg it is close to their nominal weekly score.
  • Price rises will be achieved after 8 completed rounds.
  • When a trading out B-Rooks they will have reached their $240K price level even if they have been brought in later in the season.
  • Byes are not taken into account.
  • Trading commences for both teams in round 9 – when starting rookies reach their maximum values.
The scoring assumptions, at 1-3 above, have been chosen because they are not unreasonable, but primarily so that both teams acquire ~425 free/value/bonus points. G&R… 8 X (60-32.6) + 8 X (49-23.3) and MPM… 17 X (81.5-71.7) + 2 X (60-32.6) + 8 X (49-23.3) This proves to be very instructive. I have also selected three big-guns for the MPM line-up to neutralise the captaincy issue and also because there is another 125 free points in there somewhere.
When factoring in assumptions 1-3 the 1800 point score-tables above rise and both teams are now projected to score ~2020 pts for the first 8 rounds.
View attachment 26095
At Round 9 both teams start trading out their fully fattened A-Rooks – 2 @ 300K and replace them (on the field) with a new B-Rook @ 125K & an Upgraded A-Rook @475K (ARU-Mid). This is the result for Round 9 – both teams boost their weekly score by 18 pts.
View attachment 26096

Now MPM doesn’t have any A-Rooks and has to adopt a different trading tactic while G&R doesn’t have much choice but to keep upgrading 2 more A-Rooks. MPM sell off one of their fully fattened B-Rooks – 1 @ 240K and one of their fully fattened Mids @ $430K replacing them with a new bench B-Rook @ 125K & a Gun @ 545K. This is the result for Round 10.
View attachment 26097

Again the scores are virtually the same and continue on this way with the same trading pattern– this is the round 12 result - after G&R have sold off all of their A-Rooks. The scores are continuing to increase in tandem. You will notice that the purchase price totals start to diverge, but the MPM side doesn’t trade out as many of its bonus points, so the scoring stays on a par.
View attachment 26098
Now G&R start cashing out their fattened B-Rooks 2 @ $240K for a new bench B-Rook @ $125K & a new upgraded mid @ $355K (BRU-Mid). It will take G&R 4 rounds to bring in enough of these upgrade mids to remove all on-field rookies. Meanwhile MPM keeps upgrading a $385K Mid to a $535K Gun each week. This is the Round 13 result.
View attachment 26099
This table reflects the scores after 3 more trading iterations - at Round 16.
View attachment 26100
There are slight rounding di*** in my figurework that makes it look like MPM is just in front – but basically the teams stay in lock-step – under these value assumptions. Also, both teams have used the same number of trades.

If my workings hold up, it seems to me that there is no answer to the question of which is the better starting strategy. It seems to be the wrong question. (This isn’t what I was originally expecting, but the more you think thru the maths, the more it makes sense.) The real issue is perhaps how much value you can pack into your starting team.

In this analysis, if MPM could squeeze another bonus point out of their mids – go from 81.5 to 82.5ppg, it would be hundreds of points ahead of G&R by now. Similarly, if we have a season with lots of great available rookies then the G&R A-Rooks could be expected to achieve more than 60ppg, and then they would edge ahead.

I don’t have much evidence to support my 10ppg bonus for Mid-Pricers, but I think the assumptions about Rooks are reasonable – refer to posts 1823 – 1845 in the thread - Super Early Strategy, Team & Player Discussions.

If it is ultimately all about value selections, then the start of the season is the point at which most value options are on the table. As the season wears on, each week there will be just a few rookies reaching their bubble and just a few injury-affected prices, but most players will be quickly priced to their scoring levels.

PS. This is the sort of exercise in which you always make some sort of math error, so I have checked it thru a few times. Hopefully there’s no serious bugs in there – as I said the results play out in a way that I think is mathematically logical.
Always fascinating.

If you care to share to Google sheet I'll have a play. I would like to see scoring once hitting full premo. Also I think the MPM scenario should access some A class rookies, potentially on field. I think with 17 mid pricers you run out of rookies trying to upgrade them all. Gotta start a mix of guns say upto 9, with some rookies. With 175 avg spend want probs 70-75ppg, scoring. Could even do that but assume 1-2 get dropped and don't score properly....same for bench. Also start trading earlier. Round 5/6. 30 trades means 2 corrective, 4 injury, 2.4 trades to upgrade avg? So say 9 upgrades on 13 premo side which appears most common this season...22 trades, leaves 2 luxury trades. Wanna be full premo by end of byes, so say commence upgrades in round 6/7 assuming you use at least 1 injury trade in the mid season. Cheers
 
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#46
Always fascinating.

If you care to share to Google sheet I'll have a play. I would like to see scoring once hitting full premo. Also I think the MPM scenario should access some A class rookies, potentially on field. I think with 17 mid pricers you run out of rookies trying to upgrade them all. Gotta start a mix of guns say upto 9, with some rookies. With 175 avg spend want probs 70-75ppg, scoring. Could even do that but assume 1-2 get dropped and don't score properly....same for bench. Also start trading earlier. Round 5/6. 30 trades means 2 corrective, 4 injury, 2.4 trades to upgrade avg? So say 9 upgrades on 13 premo side which appears most common this season...22 trades, leaves 2 luxury trades. Wanna be full premo by end of byes, so say commence upgrades in round 6/7 assuming you use at least 1 injury trade in the mid season. Cheers
My objective was to see if there is any inherent advantage to either the G&R or the MPM starting structures, so I deliberately set up fairly extreme examples and stripped back everything to keep the main objective in clearer focus.

I completely agree that, in the real SC world – seems strange using an expression like that for a fantasy game – there would be corrective trades and perhaps there would be some injuries and perhaps some trades would commence before Round 8. However, I am convinced that if these extra events were incorporated into the modelling (at the same time) for both teams, it wouldn’t matter – as in the effects on scoring would be the same. So, I’m ducking a bit as this would significantly complicate my model without (IMO) changing anything.

This proposition wouldn’t hold if there was some beneficial action that one team could access that the other couldn’t. I can’t immediately think of any, but would be interested to hear any ideas.

If I were to allow A-Rooks to score at 70-75ppg, that would force a recalibration of the scoring for the MPM Mids – to keep everything balanced they would then have to score at about 14 ppg over their nominal value. But this thinking is back in the realm of the key finding of my workings. Its not so much the starting structure that matters, it’s the amount of free points (value) that is going to be decisive in the end.

Google sheet? .
 
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#47
Here's a question that has been dancing around the other threads a bit lately...
In weighing up starters on different lines for the same price we have examples where one is keeper level for their line (Heeney) but will likely still score less than someone slightly below keeper level on another line (eg. Taranto), who do you pick?

You could potentially fill a team with more "keepers" by taking them FWD/DEF. Does this save you trades in the end vs. starting with less "keepers", more slots to fill, but having higher priced keepers in place from the beginning?
 
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#48
Here's a question that has been dancing around the other threads a bit lately...
In weighing up starters on different lines for the same price we have examples where one is keeper level for their line (Heeney) but will likely still score less than someone slightly below keeper level on another line (eg. Taranto), who do you pick?

You could potentially fill a team with more "keepers" by taking them FWD/DEF. Does this save you trades in the end vs. starting with less "keepers", more slots to fill, but having higher priced keepers in place from the beginning?
I think it's a bit of both. Value is a good thing because no one ends up with the best 22 players on the ground but it's also not eternal as the teams with the best players finish the year stronger. Taranto averaging 105 and Heeney averaging 95 would be line ball. It's one of the more interesting topics in supercoach and there are lots of good threads this preaseason discussing the idea of value.
The playing of the game is also a big factor. As much as we would like to save $100k on Lachie Neale it's still hard to trade in a $650k player.
The mix I see most often from good teams is the best rucks with 3 or 4 of the best players on other lines supplemented by bargains. When I say bargain I don't mean $30k underpriced but more like $100k underpriced and easily traded in. Last year we had Ridley, Stewart, Whitfield, Laird etc.
I can see Heeney and Taranto both being handy picks if they are fit.
 
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#49
Here's a question that has been dancing around the other threads a bit lately...
In weighing up starters on different lines for the same price we have examples where one is keeper level for their line (Heeney) but will likely still score less than someone slightly below keeper level on another line (eg. Taranto), who do you pick?

You could potentially fill a team with more "keepers" by taking them FWD/DEF. Does this save you trades in the end vs. starting with less "keepers", more slots to fill, but having higher priced keepers in place from the beginning?
Given Taranto (mid Only) and Heeney (Fwd Only) is an interesting one, but it is not possible to construct it purely one or the other. So let say we have one spot to fill in the Mids and one spot to fill in the Fwds and we have about $570K to spend. We either get Taranto & a $125K Fwd rookie or Heeney & a $125K Mid rookie.

So depending on your choice you would be bumping a mid rookie or a fwd rookie into your starting 22. The strength of those players might help your decision but let’s say they are also line-ball.

Then I think I’d go with the player I thought would actually score the most points. If they were equal – or perhaps just a bit in Taranto’s favour – you might consider going to Heeney on the basis that if Taranto were injured, he would probably be easier to replace.
 
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#50
Here's a question that has been dancing around the other threads a bit lately...
In weighing up starters on different lines for the same price we have examples where one is keeper level for their line (Heeney) but will likely still score less than someone slightly below keeper level on another line (eg. Taranto), who do you pick?

You could potentially fill a team with more "keepers" by taking them FWD/DEF. Does this save you trades in the end vs. starting with less "keepers", more slots to fill, but having higher priced keepers in place from the beginning?
Problem then is filling you mids with quality throughout the year.
 
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