Opinion 2021: Expectations and Needs

Rowsus

Statistician
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
29,130
Likes
64,893
AFL Club
Melbourne
#1
One of the things I'm always stressing in Questions For Rowsus, is the importance of setting and having reasonable expectations for your players. This is not always an easy thing to do. Also added into the complexity of the problem, is the fact people have different levels for that player to achieve, to be considered a good pick.

One of the things people usually over estimate in setting their expectations, is the number of games the player might play that season.
As a guide, in 2020 111 players played all 17 Home & Away games. In 2019 there were 108 players to play all 22 Home & Away games. Thar'san average of only 5 to 6 players per team.

So if we collectively set both expectations and needs for different players, we can collate the results, and you can see if you are setting reasonable expectations, or you are outside of what other people are thinking.

So we are looking for 2 things in this thread.
We want to give a number for a player as to what you expect thay can achieve ie. M Gawn 18/127
Then we want you to give a number for what you think that player needs to achieve, as a minimum, for you to call him a good starting pick in your team. ie M Gawn 19/135

Choose any player you like. Certainly choose players that others have already given an opinion on, that way we start to see a range of opinions.

I will ask, if you are going to one extreme or another, we would like a reasonable explanation as to why.
ie I think M Gawn will go 22/150 this season, as he's fitter than he's ever been, and with the extra game time this year, he'll only record even more stats.

Or

I think Gawn will go 17/110 this season. The longer games will find him out, and I'm expecting more injuries, and injury scores.


For the Stepping Stone type players, you can give numbers like:
Ziebell - think 18/82, need 7/10/78 translates as:
I think he can have an 18/82 season, but I only need him to play 7 out of 10 and average 78 for me to consider him a good pick

You get the idea. If we keep it genuine, it should help people with some of their difficult selections.

Here is a PIT60 conversion table, to help you decide what is a good result or not.
It's simple to use. eg. If you think J Kelly will go 18/120 this season, you can see on the table his value to your team is 109.1.

SCS 2021 ExpN.png

For those unfamiliar with the PIT60 concept, it allocates a value of 60 points to the games a player misses (a Rookie score), and adjusts their average accordingly.


It will be fun at seasons end, to look back at this, and see how well we have done with our expectations/predictions!
 

Rowsus

Statistician
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
29,130
Likes
64,893
AFL Club
Melbourne
#10
I'll get us started with a few.
J Kelly $615,600 Mid
I think he'll be 18/116, but would probably want 19/120 to consider him a good pick.
N Fyfe $608,300 Mid
Expecting 18/113, would need 19/120.

D Heppell $319,100 Mid
Expecting 16/90, wanting 8/10/88
A real lineball for me, but I don't like Stepping Stones in the Mids, unless they look too good to resist. Heppell doesn't.
J Ziebell $257,900 Fwd
Expecting 18/83, would want 8/10/78 - if we're short of Rookies, he probably starts for me.
 

Rowsus

Statistician
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
29,130
Likes
64,893
AFL Club
Melbourne
#13
Thank for joining in @Eagling.
Some your numbers highlight how people have different perspectives and needs.
The 2 that stand out to me are you being happy with:
Cripps going 20 with a PIT60 of 102.6
Rowell going 20 with a PIT60 of 98.2
There are 2 or 3 others, as well. If I started Cripps or Rowell, I'd be disappointed if they returned those figures. That's not saying either of us is right or wrong, just that we see it differently. I actually think your numbers aren't far off.
I will add your contribution into the tables above later today.

Anyone else with some numbers they'd like to share on any players?
 
Joined
3 Feb 2014
Messages
3,702
Likes
5,297
AFL Club
West Coast
#14
Thank for joining in @Eagling.
Some your numbers highlight how people have different perspectives and needs.
The 2 that stand out to me are you being happy with:
Cripps going 20 with a PIT60 of 102.6
Rowell going 20 with a PIT60 of 98.2
There are 2 or 3 others, as well. If I started Cripps or Rowell, I'd be disappointed if they returned those figures. That's not saying either of us is right or wrong, just that we see it differently. I actually think your numbers aren't far off.
I will add your contribution into the tables above later today.

Anyone else with some numbers they'd like to share on any players?
I'm definitely no expert on the raw numbers but with the quality of Supercoach I am, just having Cripps going PIT60 102.6 for $525k saves me from picking a PIT60 104 from Jelly at $610k.
 
Joined
18 Jul 2016
Messages
3,769
Likes
26,257
AFL Club
Sydney
#17
Expectations vary so much and are so hard to work with but the needs side for me are a lot more fixed.

The first thing to disclaim though is that there are two different groups and within those groups there are two different types for mine.

Group 1 - "Keepers" - These are players that you intend to be in your side at round 23. This group the "need" level is actually variable, it's dictated by the market. For example, Dunkley could go 22/95 and be a great pick if that is F3 scoring or a terrible pick if F6 were to shift to 110. As such, you're first requirement for finding a need level on this group is to make an estimate on where the varying levels will be in the position.

Now generally it's going to be somewhat constant with the starting ranges but this year could certainly be an anomaly with the general consensus that last year has created some price inflation. Still, using purely LY you'd say defenders need 105+ for D1-3 and 100+ for D4-6 for example, now there is some leeway on that D6 spot for a significant amount of value, Harmes as a common example could average 95, the D6 level be 100 and I'd argue you've still come out ahead with that pick assuming you use the cash.

Group 2 - "Cash Cows" - This group is a lot easier to set the need level for. Essentially it's how much cash you want to generate in points form. +30 is where you're looking for 150k which is about what you need each cash cow to generate in a reasonable upgrade/starting mix scenario.

Keepers

Premiums - Roughly, this is the group that start premium priced. Realistically at a bare minimum they need to remain a premium. Ideally they want to hold or improve their average or at least their rank within the position. Basically my need on this group would be within a couple of points of their starting price. Captains and guys that are extreme outliers (eg. Neale, Danger, Lloyd and Gawn) have a bit more leeway, Lloyd can fall 7 points and unless something changes is still clearly the best at his position which still has value.

Breakouts - These are the guys who aren't premiums to start but are keeper picks in your starting mix. Realistically you're aiming for the D4-6 level at each position with them as the need. The cheaper they are, the further below the D6 one could feasibly score and still work. So Milera at 90 might actually work out but Williams at 90 would more than likely be hurting your chances. Realistically every one of these you pick that isn't a keeper has more than likely cost you significant cash generation and a chance at a better player elsewhere in the starting mix and also a significant amount of points per $ spent. Super high reward with the extra trades and value but also very high cost of failure.

Cash Cows

Burners - Basically guys who you don't expect to score big, Impey is a guy whose historic stats would back him being in this category for example, it's a guy you probably need to hold for ~8 weeks and that you want consistent scoring from with the idea that at that point they'll have made their cash. These guys the average matters.

Spikers - Guys who are likely to be inconsistent and probably not have a great average but can burst a couple of big scores within a month to spike their price. Daniher to me is the perfect example of a candidate for this. You're not looking at their average as much as needing a 4 week period that has a couple of big scores and hopefully a couple of alright scores either side. Knowing full well that these types can also score absolute duds but holding until the spike. Someone like Daniher might be a 4/95 type at some point, hopefully early, in the season.

The reality is most cash cows generally end up being somewhere in between, often a burner becomes a spike on the back of an out of nowhere score.

Probably the biggest distinction in these groups is the mid-price picks. Someone like Heppell I would say is very unlikely to average 110 for the season, heck even 90 given the injuries is possibly on the high end but I think he's very capable of having a month where he does something in that range and that, barring absolute stinkers preceding it, would make more than enough cash for his job to be well done. So you might not consider them based on what you think they can average if you didn't also consider that burst component. Genuine rookies are so cheap that you can basically wait for an 80+ and then cash them out a few weeks later.

I'll have a crack at some of the players later and post it, generally I work a lot more on ranges when doing expectations so will be an interesting exercise.
 
Joined
18 Jul 2016
Messages
3,769
Likes
26,257
AFL Club
Sydney
#19
Below are some common names. Happy to do other players if anyone has any requests :)

Few notes are I think beyond a certain drop the value as a starter is gone, so Lloyd for example while still a keeper makes a bad starting pick beyond that point compared to alternative use of the cash.

There is a tolerable range below the end of the position where enough value exists, the saved trades and the extra starting cash should return more than the lost points to the ideal D6 type pick if well used.

I found picking games played a very difficult measure and I've almost certainly overshot, realistically my general rule is like 3+ out is a trade so I haven't really bothered going below that point.

The guys with a needed of 10 are cash cows, while I think all have plausible keeper ranges, that's not what they'd be in my team for. Also note that the need includes "spike" range, so 4 weeks at that or above is really what I'm looking for.

Flynn is what I think you'd need to believe to justify risking starting him.

For mine the basic premise for this was to use last years numbers for the most part, personally I think you can knock about 5% off the starting points to find the ranges, so I think these are on the higher end of my positional expectations:

D1-3: 105+ D4+ ~98
M1-4: 115+ M5+ ~110
R1-2: 120+
F1: 110+ F2-3 ~105 F4+ ~97

Noticed the Callum Mills is cut off, 1st and lower is the high end as a defender, 2nd and higher is the mid range as a mid, imo.

Projections.JPG
 
Joined
3 Feb 2021
Messages
2,410
Likes
13,067
AFL Club
Essendon
#20
I wasn’t sure where to post this and was contemplating starting a new thread but on reading @Rowsus opening post, I reckon this dove tails quite neatly into the topic. Of course, if you feel this should go elsewhere, then feel free to shunt it.

Most SCers would have asked themselves the question “What does it take to win this bloody game?”.

There are many answers:
  • Join up to a site like SCS
  • Watch a whole lot of footy
  • Research, research, research
  • Avoid group think etc etc
The list could go on and on but I’ve always liked to look at things in terms of numbers. On that front there is quite a simple answer:
  • 517 scores of 103
Excluding the clusterf*** that was 2020, a supercoach season is made up of 20 rounds of 23 scores (22 + C) and 3 rounds of 19 (18 +C).

Since 2012 (when the multi-bye rounds were introduced), the winner of Supercoach has scored as follows:

1614342840900.png

Obviously, the scores vary from year to year, with the high of C-Money’s monster 54,465 in 2014 (when he won RDT as well) to the low of 52,481 the following year but on the whole over the eight years, there’s not a lot of deviation.

So, based on eight years of data, on average you need a total score of 53,249.3 which, when divided by 517 equates to just under 103 per player. No wonder we all like a good ton!

Taking this a step further, I thought about how we approach a SC season, talking about “keepers”, “premos”, “mid-price madness” and “fattening our cows” and I thought to myself, how can you analyse those 22 spots on your field in terms of that 103 average.

This is where I see the link to Rowsus analysis. If you look at your team as being divided into a certain number of keepers and the remaining places on your field as just that - “remainders”, you can then apply some pretty simple math to work out what you need from those remainders to win the damn thing!

For example, you might be starting 13 keepers in a configuration something like:

1614342865027.png

By definition, you’re generally planning to hold your keepers for the year and either replace them with like keepers if they’re out for the long term or with a bench score for shorter periods (hence why PIT60 is such an important tool but I’ll come to that later).

On the other side of the coin, you have 9 remaining spots made up of rookies and mid-pricers. It’s unlikely that many or any of the players starting in those spots will be there at the end of the year so it’s just a place you need to score points in. The return for each of these spots is just the sum total of the scores from the players that start there and those you upgrade to along the way.

On that basis, you can attribute an expectation score to your keepers (using the more conservative PIT60 approach) and then find the need score for the remainders.

Referring to the above structure, you'll see I stuck in some rough expectation scores for the keepers (probably a little bullish) and scores for the starting rookies and mid-pricers. Incidentally, using those numbers you get a predicted Rd 1 score of 2,220. Not bad but well below 2,368.9 you need for non-bye rounds to hit the average required to get to the magical 53,249.3. Of course, we all know your side gets better over the season (well, it should) so you’re going to under-perform at the start and over perform at the end. (Having said that, I’ve had some putrid teams over the years that have presented a serious challenge to that theory!)

The next step is to work out the break-down of the 517 scores between your keepers and the remainders.

If you assume a 13 keeper / 9 remainder structure, the break-down is as follows:
  • Keeper scores: 286 (being 13 x 20 rds + 2/3 x 13 x 3 rds)*
  • Remainder scores: 208 (517 - 286 - 23)**
  • Captain scores: 23
*The 2/3rds represents the share of starting keepers you have available for each the bye rounds. Obviously, it’s not necessarily going to be a perfect 3-way split for every team but the math still works.

**The remainder total is worked out by deduction. It can be worked out separately as 20 x 9 + 3 x (18 – 2/3 x 13). The result is the same.

From there, you take the average of the keeper expectation scores (110) and multiply that by the total number of keeper scores: 286 x 110 = 31,460.

Add to that 23 captain scores of say 130 = 2,990 (probably a little bullish but hey, in the last two years, who hasn’t used that or something higher as their cut off score for a VC?!) and you get a total of 34,450.

Subtract that from the magical 53,249.3 and you’re left with 18,799.3, which is basically what you need from your remainders to win.

18,799.3 / 208 = 90.4 average score per spot.

Taking it a step further, if you assume you upgrade all those spots by the middle of the season and achieve 100 per spot for the remainder of the season, you only need an average of 80.8 from each of those spots in the first half.

SIMPLES!

If you were to translate the above to a starting Rd 1 score, it would be:

13 x 110 + 9 x 80.8 + 1 x 130 = 2287.2

which is pretty close to the benchmark I’ve always set myself for my plan teams in the pre-season.

Obviously, there are a lot of moving parts and the results change depending on the number of keepers and score expectations you set, but that’s why realistic expectations are so important because it helps you realise what you’ve got to achieve elsewhere. It also helps demonstrate that it’s not always about chasing / having a certain player but rather just finding someone who is going to give you an expected return (very mercenary, I know!)

Anyway, hopefully that has added to the collective intellect on here (which is bloody huge BTW). Apologies if it was all a bit long winded or has been covered before. Just some thoughts I’ve been looking to get down on paper for a while.
 
Last edited:
Top