Discussion SC 2021: Rookie Discussion

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I agree but Goodwin has done some strange things at the selection table in the past.
Goodwin strikes me as that guy who is an 18 handicapper in golf but plays off a 5 just to make it harder on himself...

It genuinely feels like he's obsessed with doing things outside of the box because Roos would still get the credit if he doesn't or something. Genuinely seems to want to make things so much harder.

I don't know how you look at Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney and go "yeah, I'm gonna gameplan to have the least stoppages in the league". That group may be the greatest clearance midfield since at least the Eagles with Judd, Kerr, Cox and Cousins and quite possibly even be better than that on pure clearance ability.
 
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I feel very comfortable in Gulden being a 60 scorer, which at his price is actually startable, though I see him more as a strong bench choice. He makes 200k at 60 a game.

I really liked Downie, think he looked a strong on field rookie option. Looks and moves a lot like Josh Kelly who I think is actually a very decent comparison for rookie season (68).

Dow looked great, might just be preseason but they've invested a lot in him and it sure looked like it was paying off.

Smith's role was really strong. I'm not 100% convinced he's there round 1 or that his JS would be strong even if he is but he's a good chance at the very least.

Campbell's role was excellent and I think he should be pretty firmly in the best 22, too talented to waste time in the reserves where he already has been playing the past couple of years. Whether he can cash on the premium is a legit question but he looks capable of an 80+ season to me and I'd say he should hit high 60s with decent regularity and that should be somewhere near his low end of likely averages.

Powell is very highly regarded, someone has to get the ball at North and bad team helps the job security. I haven't seen him in action but everything I've read screams that he's worth the premium and a legitimate on-field option.

McNeil is cheap and looked to have a genuine role for the Dogs and played very well. At his price he needs to do so little to be a strong pick. He's a pure benchy at this point in time but he's a good chance.

Valente a chance if he's fit but I'm not loving him for round 1 if he can't get up for the preseason game.

Jordon has to be a chance, though think he gets squeezed out personally.

Basically though I think between Dow, Campbell, Powell, Downie and Gulden there is enough to find the ~3 starters most are likely looking for and then you need one more on top of them to finish it off. With Impey, Daniher, Cahill, Rowe, Ziebell et al the M/F guys are basically mids this year.




Looked really solid to me. Great without the ball and did more than enough with it to impress me. I don't think he's worth the premium over some other options though so would think the ass kind of has to fall out of the forwards to be likely to be relevant.

Probably absolute best case you'd be looking at a Jack Higgins type season down to something like a Jack Lonie type output, that's a 55-72 type range and my gut says he's probably in that 60-65 as a likely outcome. I think he offers a very similar outlook to Rowe with probably lower JS and a better team but I don't think there's a way to spin that being worth the 40k.





One thing worth noting on both of Downie and Gulden is that they're academy guys and teams don't seem to really bid on them once you're into that "they're not paying anything for them anyway" type of range.

Also being academy guys the clubs have had them on AFL training schedules and access to them for a lot longer which probably does put them slightly ahead of the curve, especially in a season where most rookies are behind.

None of that means they'll succeed but they did both look really impressive and this draft was so compromised by players not playing that I think more than ever we're going to probably have outlier rookies. A guy like Downie to me looks like he'd probably have been drafted a lot earlier if he'd played last year. Gulden is one of those "short" guys who always fall further than they should as well and are probably the most common buckers of the trend.

I hope they succeed as things are going to get really difficult if they dont :LOL:
Outside Rowe who are these cheap fed rookies who can score around 60-65? Take henery and waterman who are these cheap rookies who have a chance of playing?
 
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I feel very comfortable in Gulden being a 60 scorer, which at his price is actually startable, though I see him more as a strong bench choice. He makes 200k at 60 a game.

I really liked Downie, think he looked a strong on field rookie option. Looks and moves a lot like Josh Kelly who I think is actually a very decent comparison for rookie season (68).

Dow looked great, might just be preseason but they've invested a lot in him and it sure looked like it was paying off.

Smith's role was really strong. I'm not 100% convinced he's there round 1 or that his JS would be strong even if he is but he's a good chance at the very least.

Campbell's role was excellent and I think he should be pretty firmly in the best 22, too talented to waste time in the reserves where he already has been playing the past couple of years. Whether he can cash on the premium is a legit question but he looks capable of an 80+ season to me and I'd say he should hit high 60s with decent regularity and that should be somewhere near his low end of likely averages.

Powell is very highly regarded, someone has to get the ball at North and bad team helps the job security. I haven't seen him in action but everything I've read screams that he's worth the premium and a legitimate on-field option.

McNeil is cheap and looked to have a genuine role for the Dogs and played very well. At his price he needs to do so little to be a strong pick. He's a pure benchy at this point in time but he's a good chance.

Valente a chance if he's fit but I'm not loving him for round 1 if he can't get up for the preseason game.

Jordon has to be a chance, though think he gets squeezed out personally.

Basically though I think between Dow, Campbell, Powell, Downie and Gulden there is enough to find the ~3 starters most are likely looking for and then you need one more on top of them to finish it off. With Impey, Daniher, Cahill, Rowe, Ziebell et al the M/F guys are basically mids this year.




Looked really solid to me. Great without the ball and did more than enough with it to impress me. I don't think he's worth the premium over some other options though so would think the ass kind of has to fall out of the forwards to be likely to be relevant.

Probably absolute best case you'd be looking at a Jack Higgins type season down to something like a Jack Lonie type output, that's a 55-72 type range and my gut says he's probably in that 60-65 as a likely outcome. I think he offers a very similar outlook to Rowe with probably lower JS and a better team but I don't think there's a way to spin that being worth the 40k.





One thing worth noting on both of Downie and Gulden is that they're academy guys and teams don't seem to really bid on them once you're into that "they're not paying anything for them anyway" type of range.

Also being academy guys the clubs have had them on AFL training schedules and access to them for a lot longer which probably does put them slightly ahead of the curve, especially in a season where most rookies are behind.

None of that means they'll succeed but they did both look really impressive and this draft was so compromised by players not playing that I think more than ever we're going to probably have outlier rookies. A guy like Downie to me looks like he'd probably have been drafted a lot earlier if he'd played last year. Gulden is one of those "short" guys who always fall further than they should as well and are probably the most common buckers of the trend.

I hope they succeed as things are going to get really difficult if they dont :LOL:
I just feel you're very optimistic on these players like Downie, Gulden, Campbell (at that price), McNeil and Jordon. Powell I think will be ok.

Downie and Gulden could be bench options but I'm not confident we can start two draft picks taken below pick 30 (regardless if they're from academies), 1 seems like enough of a risk. I haven't noticed academy players playing better early on. JKelly, was much much more highly touted than Downie as a junior and got to show us his ability in the u/18 championships, I don't think that's a good comparison and I'll be pretty stunned if he averages 80. I worry that Campbell could be a flop with all that money being put on him, Gulden looks like one of these very uncontested players who has a tough start to their career (i prefer Downie, I think) McNeil isn't in the dogs best 22 as far as I can see, Jordon has more of a chance for Melbourne I'd say.

I also think a good scenario is one or two of Downie/Gulden/McNeil/Jordon get picked, there's a decent chance none get picked. Powell and Dow you can start along with with them if they get picked, then Ely Smith I'd say is a better chance than the others to play and Valente/Collier-Dawkins as well if fit. I'm not keen on Campbell at such a high price barring an amazing practice game, if I'm going to pay that much for a first season player I want to be very confident that they can score and we have an absence of data from last year, which usually guides us.
 
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Outside Rowe who are these cheap fed rookies who can score around 60-65? Take henery and waterman who are these cheap rookies who have a chance of playing?
Given we've already got Ziebell, Daniher, Cahill and Impey as very strong on-field options (so I think all are likely 65+ guys) most are only going to need 2-3. Will ignore those over 140k but if there's a year to be taking them on the bench it could be this year where I think getting the best cows is going to be worth the premium quite often and there are a handful in this group.

Rowe - Not sold he's a consistent 65+ guy but should have a solid month at that level, good JS it would appear and cheap. Just needs a game where he kicks 3 and scores an 80 and he'll do his job.

Henry - Think he's likely going to be a high 50s guy but his role was very good, think Tom Lynch at the Crows type role, and as a burst leader his skillset should hold up better at the AFL level than the more traditional power KPF guys in his first year. Style of play that can also burst a 65+ month I think. Seemed to have a role somewhat like Stephenson as a rookie.

FMacrae - Haven't seen him but if he's as like his half-brother as everyone keeps saying that's a solid indicator.

Smith - Played wing, couple of years in the system, looks physically ready. Mid also so probably gets picked there.

Jones - Similar to Henry but played a fair bit deeper. Think he struggles to score and is more of a 55 type who you hope can kick a few in a game and get the 80 to spike into a 65 month. JS perhaps the question but he looked good.

Evans - JS the big issue, think he makes way but if he's there, small forward in a strong team has produced some good scores. Not top of my list.

Bergman - If named and the JS looks acceptable he's a very strong choice as a HB/Wing type. JS is his issue though.

Ralphsmith - He looked the goods filling in for Houli, would need some kind of clarity that they're going to ease him back and miss the first month though for me to pick him. Think the scoring would be there though.

Brockman - Think his JS should be decent, fits a very clear need and with Wingard unlikely early on that just strengthens the case. Showed enough to me to think he can score in the 60s. Not expecting a lot of consistency though.

Scott - Not sold on the JS or the scoring potential but he's a bit more mature aged and they elevated him for a reason you'd think.

Waterman - Still has to get into the round 1 team but from there he's a good bet, don't love the scoring potential but like the other more KP types think he can smash out an 80 or two to spike his price. JS the question mark but mature aged and absolutely ready physically so that doesn't hurt.

I don't expect we see all of that list and admittedly there's only a couple I think are solid 65 potential types but I think they're all in play and expect we see somewhere around half to 3/4 of them, I think going for guys who can spike scores is the best bet, I would think the ZDIC is going to be very common and 4 of the last rookies upgraded this year so hopefully we wont need to play any of the forward benchies as it does fall away for mine after the benchies.

Dow and Campbell are probably the pair to head towards if you're starting an extra forward and stick to the above list as bench options.
 

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I watched the Essendon v Carlton practice match twice (live and on replay). The only thing I was absolutely sure about after it was that Dow is a massive lock.

4th year player who has developed slowly. I think he should do 80+ easily and could easily be a quasi fwd keeper if he can hit the 85-90 range.
 
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Just scrolling through names down back... anyone know about Fischer McAsey?
Is he injured or did he play the practice match?

Some pretty low scores in his rookie year but played plenty of games for someone that cheap.
Played in the practice match.

Confusion in regards to Doedee & Talia when they are available so leaves Butts , McAsey & Worrell (played in the SANFL game) plus Murray has been training and played.

@Blaze provided a report on the practice game and knows what is happening at West Lakes
 
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Not sure if we can get this structure to work this year, about 280k short. Obviously you can change the names/$$$ around, move Danger and or Martin to mids etc, just cant see it working. Would love to start with it.

View attachment 26633
Maynard down to Williams, Impey down to a 124k and Martin to a Heeney. Could also free a bit up if u went lower on Chapman and Campbell.
 
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I just feel you're very optimistic on these players like Downie, Gulden, Campbell (at that price), McNeil and Jordon. Powell I think will be ok.

Downie and Gulden could be bench options but I'm not confident we can start two draft picks taken below pick 30 (regardless if they're from academies), 1 seems like enough of a risk. I haven't noticed academy players playing better early on. JKelly, was much much more highly touted than Downie as a junior and got to show us his ability in the u/18 championships, I don't think that's a good comparison and I'll be pretty stunned if he averages 80. I worry that Campbell could be a flop with all that money being put on him, Gulden looks like one of these very uncontested players who has a tough start to their career (i prefer Downie, I think) McNeil isn't in the dogs best 22 as far as I can see, Jordon has more of a chance for Melbourne I'd say.

I also think a good scenario is one or two of Downie/Gulden/McNeil/Jordon get picked, there's a decent chance none get picked. Powell and Dow you can start along with with them if they get picked, then Ely Smith I'd say is a better chance than the others to play and Valente/Collier-Dawkins as well if fit. I'm not keen on Campbell at such a high price barring an amazing practice game, if I'm going to pay that much for a first season player I want to be very confident that they can score and we have an absence of data from last year, which usually guides us.
I think you're setting unrealistic expectations on what these rookies need to score if you're needing 80s for them to start.

Downie at the 68 that I said is a pretty reasonable aim would be better than Heppell at 100 for on field scoring contribution. These kids don't need to be world beaters, just reasonable. FWIW would also be very surprised if he averaged 80. He's an elite runner and a silky left foot kick who will start on a wing, it's a tidy comparison to Kelly, it's hard to compare where he'd be had Corona not happened last year but having watched him I'd back he'd have moved a fair way up the draft.

Gulden's going to shock you then. Loves the contest, both with and without the ball.

Given we've already got Dow and Powell, realistically you need to find 1 on field rookie, many would be taking a Heppell type and don't even need that which means you then just need 3 bench options.

Campbell for me is a potentially all or nothing pick but I don't see any way he flops other than that he doesn't play or hold his spot, as many things as I hate about Horse the one thing he has done consistently well is give kids a few games to demand a spot and given how talented Campbell is I'm going to say he's a very solid chance of taking it. If he's not there round 1 then forget it but if he is then he's the kind of elite talent that will be really hard to force out of a team and should score excellently. Will basically fill Mill's role who averaged 77 as a rookie in that role. Would be very surprised if he didn't justify the premium if he plays 10 games. Will be the best kick in the Swans backline from game 1.

I'd be surprised if McNeil isn't right in the mix for the Dogs, had a very clear role for them in the preseason and they need guys to just play roles. Not normal to recruit mature aged guys and then give them clear roles if that wasn't the plan the whole way.

Lazzaro is the other one worth mentioning who seems a very good chance of games and could also score well.

I'm pretty confident we can find the 1 or 2 on-field guys we need from this bunch and enough bench rookies that will generate cash.
 
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I think you're setting unrealistic expectations on what these rookies need to score if you're needing 80s for them to start.

Downie at the 68 that I said is a pretty reasonable aim would be better than Heppell at 100 for on field scoring contribution. These kids don't need to be world beaters, just reasonable. FWIW would also be very surprised if he averaged 80. He's an elite runner and a silky left foot kick who will start on a wing, it's a tidy comparison to Kelly, it's hard to compare where he'd be had Corona not happened last year but having watched him I'd back he'd have moved a fair way up the draft.

Gulden's going to shock you then. Loves the contest, both with and without the ball.

Given we've already got Dow and Powell, realistically you need to find 1 on field rookie, many would be taking a Heppell type and don't even need that which means you then just need 3 bench options.

Campbell for me is a potentially all or nothing pick but I don't see any way he flops other than that he doesn't play or hold his spot, as many things as I hate about Horse the one thing he has done consistently well is give kids a few games to demand a spot and given how talented Campbell is I'm going to say he's a very solid chance of taking it. If he's not there round 1 then forget it but if he is then he's the kind of elite talent that will be really hard to force out of a team and should score excellently. Will basically fill Mill's role who averaged 77 as a rookie in that role. Would be very surprised if he didn't justify the premium if he plays 10 games. Will be the best kick in the Swans backline from game 1.

I'd be surprised if McNeil isn't right in the mix for the Dogs, had a very clear role for them in the preseason and they need guys to just play roles. Not normal to recruit mature aged guys and then give them clear roles if that wasn't the plan the whole way.

Lazzaro is the other one worth mentioning who seems a very good chance of games and could also score well.

I'm pretty confident we can find the 1 or 2 on-field guys we need from this bunch and enough bench rookies that will generate cash.
I completely misread what you said about Downie, I thought you said he would average 80, that's totally my fault. You said that about Campbell.

I dont think they need to average over 80 to be good picks haha, just mid 50's if they're bench options and cheap to begin with and pushing 70 if they're up around 200k.

I'm not convinced Campbell can't be good, I think he certainly can. I'm just hesitant to pay up for first year rookies when I'm not totally sold on their scoring potential, and the lack of data on him makes me feel that way about him. I've been burned by a few in the past and I've only created exceptions for the Walsh/Rowell types in the past two years (and I was always hot on both of them from the time they were drafted due to their U/18 and TAC Supercoach numbers).

Regarding the Bulldogs, they have recruited a couple of older guys like Will Hayes and Cavarra in previous years in the national draft, and not played them at the start of the year. You can pick up a guy like that to try them out or for depth.
 
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I watched the Essendon v Carlton practice match twice (live and on replay). The only thing I was absolutely sure about after it was that Dow is a massive lock.

4th year player who has developed slowly. I think he should do 80+ easily and could easily be a quasi fwd keeper if he can hit the 85-90 range.
I agree he's primed for a breakout, and he is in my team atm.

But how are they going to juggle inside midfield time between the following, even if Marc Murphy plays 0% time there?

(1) Cripps (80% game time, so with 300% allocated between 3 on-ballers, there is 220% remaining between the next 6 players)
(2) Walsh
(3) Curnow (Still think he is easily their 2nd best inside mid behind Cripps in terms of clearance effectiveness, can't see them not resorting to Curnow as that defensive option around contests when they play against tough opponents)
(4) Williams
(5) Martin
(6) Dow
(7) Setterfield

I currently have 4 of the above, and can't help but feel at least 1 of my selections will become a failure due to lack of gametime.
 
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I agree he's primed for a breakout, and he is in my team atm.

But how are they going to juggle inside midfield time between the following, even if Marc Murphy plays 0% time there?

(1) Cripps
(2) Walsh
(3) Curnow
(4) Williams
(5) Martin
(6) Dow
(7) Setterfield

I currently have 4 of the above, and can't help but feel at least 1 of my selections will become a failure due to lack of gametime.
Yeah it’s a fair point. Makes me a bit nervous on ZWilliams but at his price, perhaps the risk is not as great.

If it were up to me, I’d have JMartin and Curnow out of there completely.

Doesn’t affect Dow though, he’s only 200k.
 
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Including ZDID , how many onfield rookies is too many to start onfield ?

Ziebell F1
Dow M5
Gawn & Grundy
Williams/Duggan/McEvoy @ D6

is easily achievable

5-1-2
4-0-7
2-0-1
0-3-5 (ZDI)

= 11-4-15
 
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I completely misread what you said about Downie, I thought you said he would average 80, that's totally my fault. You said that about Campbell.

I dont think they need to average over 80 to be good picks haha, just mid 50's if they're bench options and cheap to begin with and pushing 70 if they're up around 200k.

I'm not convinced Campbell can't be good, I think he certainly can. I'm just hesitant to pay up for first year rookies when I'm not totally sold on their scoring potential, and the lack of data on him makes me feel that way about him. I've been burned by a few in the past and I've only created exceptions for the Walsh/Rowell types in the past two years (and I was always hot on both of them from the time they were drafted due to their U/18 and TAC Supercoach numbers).

Regarding the Bulldogs, they have recruited a couple of older guys like Will Hayes and Cavarra in previous years in the national draft, and not played them at the start of the year. You can pick up a guy like that to try them out or for depth.
Campbell for me is a guy who will score 75+ pretty comfortably if we're playing him and willing to accept that he's never played in defense before, thus accept mistakes. He's a guy that it makes no sense to play in the reserves, paid a lot for him, he's spent two years in the reserves and we need every guy that can kick that we can get! My only real concern with him is that we're still talking about Horse so applying common sense is a fool's game! I don't think you take a HF/Mid at pick 5 and spend an entire o***eason converting him to a HBF without a pretty strong opinion of what he's got at the position.

I want to see another strong game this week but I'll personally be paying the premium if he does. I won't say he's at the Walsh/Rowell level but I'd certainly make a case that he can be at the Heppell/Rich/Mills level off HB and would be a little disappointed if he's not in that range barring him not staying in the side.

I agree he's primed for a breakout, and he is in my team atm.

But how are they going to juggle inside midfield time between the following, even if Marc Murphy plays 0% time there?

(1) Cripps (80% game time, so with 300% allocated between 3 on-ballers, there is 220% remaining between the next 6 players)
(2) Walsh
(3) Curnow (Still think he is easily their 2nd best inside mid behind Cripps in terms of clearance effectiveness, can't see them not resorting to Curnow as that defensive option around contests when they play against tough opponents)
(4) Williams
(5) Martin
(6) Dow
(7) Setterfield

I currently have 4 of the above, and can't help but feel at least 1 of my selections will become a failure due to lack of gametime.
Cripps is a given, Walsh is a given but will spend time on the wing. Curnow I don't think is a given, he's at that stage where you're not a midfielder in the next flag side so you find a role outside it where you're still best 22 and go from there. Williams I think has a good amount of time. Martin I think is forward a lot. Setterfield was wing all game and actually looked good there so wouldn't be surprised if that's a thing.

Worth nothing that most teams play 4 mids at a time anyway outside the CBA with a HF pushing in, I expect Dow will play that role. One thing Dow has "going for him" is that he's not really shown anything in any other positions, Cripps, Curnow, Williams and Martin have all been pretty decent in other roles (Walsh also if you count wing) while Dow has floundered in those positions while looking a different player through the midfield.

I'm totally ready for him to burn me though :LOL:
 
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I agree he's primed for a breakout, and he is in my team atm.

But how are they going to juggle inside midfield time between the following, even if Marc Murphy plays 0% time there?

(1) Cripps (80% game time, so with 300% allocated between 3 on-ballers, there is 220% remaining between the next 6 players)
(2) Walsh
(3) Curnow (Still think he is easily their 2nd best inside mid behind Cripps in terms of clearance effectiveness, can't see them not resorting to Curnow as that defensive option around contests when they play against tough opponents)
(4) Williams
(5) Martin
(6) Dow
(7) Setterfield

I currently have 4 of the above, and can't help but feel at least 1 of my selections will become a failure due to lack of gametime.
I would have thought they'd be transitioning Curnow more away from the midfield this year. He's pretty old and having him there isn't going to help them "that" much in the short term. He could potentially be at the bottom of that list. I'd also put Dow ahead of Martin, as well as Setterfield. I'm not sure martin will be played that much midfield when the season gets going, I think he provides a good amount as a flanker and is more suited to there, a position where I think they have less depth and have a tough time.
 
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I agree he's primed for a breakout, and he is in my team atm.

But how are they going to juggle inside midfield time between the following, even if Marc Murphy plays 0% time there?

(1) Cripps (80% game time, so with 300% allocated between 3 on-ballers, there is 220% remaining between the next 6 players)
(2) Walsh
(3) Curnow (Still think he is easily their 2nd best inside mid behind Cripps in terms of clearance effectiveness, can't see them not resorting to Curnow as that defensive option around contests when they play against tough opponents)
(4) Williams
(5) Martin
(6) Dow
(7) Setterfield

I currently have 4 of the above, and can't help but feel at least 1 of my selections will become a failure due to lack of gametime.
They have said, Curnow & Setterfield more wing, Murphy foward. Allowing Walsh and Williams to get in there. Dow is the unknown. If he kills it that probably hurts Williams a bit I think over Walsh.

I am really not that big on Williams, I only have him in at the moment because of price for structure. Don't think he is going to hurt anyone who doesn't start him this year.
 
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Just scrolling through names down back... anyone know about Fischer McAsey?
Is he injured or did he play the practice match?

Some pretty low scores in his rookie year but played plenty of games for someone that cheap.
McAsey has been getting games and he is fit but he would need to be 123k for me to consider him. He is going to be up against it as a young key tall and noy likely to produce great SC scores. I expect Butts and McAsey play and the one with better form stays when Talia comes back. Josh Worrell is the one to watch from.an SC perspective. He has a game that could score ok if he gets his chance

Nick Murray is the unknown too...he could be a 102k defender if added to the crows list and he is AFL ready
 
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