Position 2022: Ruck Discussion

Which of the following 2 are leading the race for your starting R1 and R2...?

  • Max Gawn

    Votes: 66 41.8%
  • Sean Darcy

    Votes: 46 29.1%
  • Nic Naitanui

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Brodie Grundy

    Votes: 125 79.1%
  • Rowan Marshall

    Votes: 13 8.2%
  • Reilly O'Brien

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • Oscar McInerney

    Votes: 3 1.9%
  • Jarrod Witts

    Votes: 18 11.4%
  • Braydon Preuss

    Votes: 12 7.6%
  • Scott Lycett, Tim English, Matthew Flynn or Luke Jackson

    Votes: 21 13.3%

  • Total voters
    158
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Carlton
#61
I'm thinking that the change of DPP status after round 6 might have a bearing on our starting sides. Does Marshall now become a legit choice given that he's likely to receive FWD status? Would Maxxy have 30% time FWD? Or would they be handy as upgrade targets?
Interesting re Marshall. I was keen on him anyway, given he averaged 98 with the ongoing foot problem. He couldn't possibly have been fully fit at any stage last year. Of all the top ruckmen he is also the best genuine forward i.e. he doesn't just "rest" down there - takes contested marks and kicks goals.

The new DPP rule should mean you can't lose. He is either matching the top ruckmen and can stay as a ruck for as long as you need him, or you have a forward who should easily be scoring at top 6 level. If he doesn't get the DPP it would mean he is rucking enough (likely due to a Ryder injury) that you'd be happy with him anyway.
 
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#63
Am I crazy that the DPP change is making me feel forced to pick Gawn. Either he doesn't get DPP and is rucking enough that he scores well, or he does and he is a guaranteed top 2 forward.
Any midfielders and rucks that gain forward or defender status, one would expect that player to be losing points in their original position in order to activate a positional change.
On the other side of the fence, if a defender or forward gains mid status then they are likely to have exceeded scoring expectations for their original position.

Fair bit to take in with these new rule changes, but liking the challenge ahead.
 
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Collingwood
#64
Any midfielders and rucks that gain forward or defender status, one would expect that player to be losing points in their original position in order to activate a positional change.
On the other side of the fence, if a defender or forward gains mid status then they are likely to have exceeded scoring expectations for their original position.

Fair bit to take in with these new rule changes, but liking the challenge ahead.
Could also play a completely different role Round 7-23 to what they play Round 1-6.

Teams are adapting so much flexibility these days just because Player X is spending the season forward for example initially , doesn't mean they will be for the entire season.

Might be "easing" into the season , covering absences/injuries etc etc.
 
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#65
Could also play a completely different role Round 7-23 to what they play Round 1-6.

Teams are adapting so much flexibility these days just because Player X is spending the season forward for example initially , doesn't mean they will be for the entire season.

Might be "easing" into the season , covering absences/injuries etc etc.
Yep, on the other hand it may really open up some gems the other way. Maybe like the Josh Kelly scenario of last season (speaking loosely as I can’t recall all the rounds this happened) where he spent some time forward which may have lead to a change in position, and then becomes a very attractive forward option when he goes back to the middle.
 
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Collingwood
#66
Yep, on the other hand it may really open up some gems the other way. Maybe like the Josh Kelly scenario of last season (speaking loosely as I can’t recall all the rounds this happened) where he spent some time forward which may have lead to a change in position, and then becomes a very attractive forward option when he goes back to the middle.
Posted about Kelly earlier today , everyone will now be wanting Cameron to play him forward so he might get DPP status 😀

Maybe the 18 coaches will actually decide to coach their teams with SC in mind to make it easier for us all.

Certainly will be interesting though to see which players may get added F status , Bont , Danger , Fyfe , Gawn , Hunter , Kelly , Marshall etc etc and the whole F landscape thinking changes
 
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Richmond
#67
Posted about Kelly earlier today , everyone will now be wanting Cameron to play him forward so he might get DPP status 😀

Maybe the 18 coaches will actually decide to coach their teams with SC in mind to make it easier for us all.

Certainly will be interesting though to see which players may get added F status , Bont , Danger , Fyfe , Gawn , Hunter , Kelly , Marshall etc etc and the whole F landscape thinking changes
Think trac is the obvious one
Felt Everytime he was about to rip a game a part last year he went forward. I was deliberately trying to avoid starting players that rest forward lots in danger/trac/Bont types but now with the dpp opening up i’m awfully tempted to start trac over Oliver
Easy switch and will be f1
Gawn the same swapping with Jackson if the gf is anything to go by I reckon they’re closer to 60-40 split this year
always seems safe to start guys that are on the ball 90% of the time neale/Oliver/Steele/Touk but this might be a bit of a game changer
even titch started at half forward alot of those games towards the end of the year before pushing into the midfield. Imagine titch as a dpp

My mind is boggled but I’m happy. I suggested that change on the supercoach post when they asked questions at the end of last year and they’ve listened. I felt fantasy was way a head of the game with their rolling dpp changes and supercoach have done us justice!
 
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#68
Here we go again...

Genuinely an interesting topic this year. Think there's more options than usual, feels like the top 2 have come back to the pack, especially Gawn who was pretty "terrible" over the 2nd half of the season.

Gawn - "Only" averaged 113 over the last 16 games last year and was clearly into a ruck share that, logically, will only increase given Jackson's potential and Gawn's importance that makes more resting forward sensible for a team thinking of September.

On the flipside, early on before they can get established in the 8 might be the time they ride him hardest.

Still, it's hard to argue him as a starter right now, imo. He's the obvious upgrade target given I think the 113 is a very fair representation.

Darcy - The obvious breakout guy. Durability not ideal but definitely looks in better shape and that's a huge factor for a guy who has never been in shape. Similar to the year Gawn got it and came back and tore the league apart, Darcy can do similar.

He seems the standout of the top 4 for mine on pure upside, underpriced from the first few rounds easing in and r23 injury. Of course those do highlight his biggest concern.

NicNat - Going under the radar, having a midfield beneath him would certainly help his ruck stats, which are already god tier. Durability has become surprisingly good the last two years. I think he's fairly priced, that's a positive and a negative. I can't see him going with Gawn/Grundy/Darcy if they push to 130 range they're all capable of but NicNat is probably the safest bet of this group to average what they're priced at right now.

Grundy - So much unknown here. I think he's my 2nd pick if I go two premiums but I don't know if I feel good about it. Will they play 2 rucks? Will they let him do what he does? Will they work out a way to actually benefit from him and rove to him? The midfield is a question mark that could hold him back. He's a poor tap ruck so he really needs his midfield winning to save that from getting away from him in SC.

Averaged 104 over his last 10 which only bumps to 107 by removing the injury game. Has a bit of a history of struggling with niggles, although to his credit has been good at avoiding them but that 104 is more indicative of Cameron taking more of his ruck minutes than anything else.

I think his range is pretty clearly in that 104-130 region, which is a huge range, of which the top half is a win and the bottom half is going to hurt if you start him and others perform as expected.

Need a lot more information here on what Macrae is going to do. As I said, I think right now the upside probably puts him ahead of Gawn/NicNat as the 2nd premium and for the risk averse he'd be ahead of Darcy.

Hickey - Maxed out last year for mine and Ladhams hurts him. Not relevant, imo.

Goldstein - Done as a premium at this point. Can't see him dialing back 7 years to compete with the high end of others and his best case seems a creeping to the low end of premium unless the ass falls out of the rest and even if that scenario happened I think there's higher upside guys.

Marshall - Torn here, he's a solid chance of getting R/F I reckon but I wouldn't start him for that hope and I think he's in a ruck share. Hasn't actually proven he can score well enough even as a lone ruck to be honest although I really love him as a player and he's definitely the guy I'd take as a breakout of all the options. Especially if Ryder weren't there.

ROB - I think he's underpriced but I don't think he's got the ceiling to be worth it. He definitely looked to limited last year physically so could definitely bounce back but that 106 2 years ago seems pretty close this ceiling for mine.

Lycett - I actually really like him as a pick, should be an unbridled #1 and he can score in that role but I don't think the ceiling is there. He's a guy who if the premium level fell to 105 I'd think about picking but I still think that premium level is 115+ and could easily be 125+

McInerney - Averaged 115 over his last 9 and really seemed to get it, like he finally realised I'm bigger and stronger than all these guys and can do what I want. Was it a flash in the pan or a breakout? Came to it all a bit later but right at that break out range for a ruck and I really like him.

Whether he's worth picking really comes down to a few things. Firstly and obviously, you have to believe in that 115. Secondly you have to believe that the premium line will also be that 115. I think that's a reasonable argument.

He's still risky, if he regresses to the mean of his career you're cooked but there's definitely merit here.

English - I think he's a forward if you're considering him, if he's the #1 ruck I think he has an excellent case as a forward. If he looks to have added the much needed size so he can not get abused in the ruck he could easily push 110+. Kind of guy you could pick if not confident on the top 4 guys and want a sighter, probably only needs 100 in the forwards which isn't a big leap.

Nank/Ceglar/McEvoy/Stanley/Flynn/Pittonet/Ryder/Wright/Phillips - I think we know what all these guys are, Pittonet maybe has a bit of upside but yeah...

Flynn - I actually loved what I saw from him and still don't get why they didn't seem to like him other than the all answering Cameron is a moron that works for all the GWS conundrums of the past few years. Basically if Preuss does beat him out then Preuss is a lock because Flynn was great. If he wasn't involved in a battle I'd actually like him as a pick.

Ladhams - I don't like him this year. If I did it would be as a forward.

Draper - I love him as a prospect, not sure if this year is the year but I think he's got 110 in him. Needs to do more around the ground with his athletic gifts and take more advantage of his leap at the CB for points. I think he probably jumps to that no man's land in the mid to high 90s this year that makes him expensive enough to make him a really hard call next year!

Jackson - See Ladhams

Witts - Great value here if he's back for round 1 but I'm not sure there's enough value here to pick him. I'd only be looking here if there is nothing below and you're really uncertain about the premiums above.

Reeves - I really liked what I saw but similar to Witts, I don't think the ceiling is high enough at his price unless there's nothing below. Think he's a guy in a couple of years with serious potential.

TDK - Be interesting if he were to win the #1 ruck role, I don't think he will because he was bullied consistently (you could argue Silvagni was more competitive in the ruck) but he's scary athletic if he does get it and could do something similar to English a couple of years ago. Doesn't seem to have a clue how good he could be though so not confident it happens this year.

Max Lynch - I assume they traded for a reason, Reeves is far from a lock, especially with a new coach who ditched him entirely last year. Rookie priced essentially and would be a go as the #1.

Preuss - If he wins the job he's probably a go and startable. Cameron so hard to trust with anything though and his durability is wretched. I like him a lot more than last year though, anything 75+ is a win from here.

No idea if there will be a genuine rookie ruck this year but those are the names I think are worth looking at this year at this point in time.
 
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#69
Think trac is the obvious one
Felt Everytime he was about to rip a game a part last year he went forward. I was deliberately trying to avoid starting players that rest forward lots in danger/trac/Bont types but now with the dpp opening up i’m awfully tempted to start trac over Oliver
Easy switch and will be f1
Gawn the same swapping with Jackson if the gf is anything to go by I reckon they’re closer to 60-40 split this year
always seems safe to start guys that are on the ball 90% of the time neale/Oliver/Steele/Touk but this might be a bit of a game changer
even titch started at half forward alot of those games towards the end of the year before pushing into the midfield. Imagine titch as a dpp

My mind is boggled but I’m happy. I suggested that change on the supercoach post when they asked questions at the end of last year and they’ve listened. I felt fantasy was way a head of the game with their rolling dpp changes and supercoach have done us justice!
Assuming they do the same as AFL Fantasy they wont change the top midfielders. By any criteria Petracca should have got it at r6 and r12 last year and he didn't. Posted it elsewhere but he spent considerably more time forward than Kelly in the first 6 weeks and didn't get it. Basically for mids to get F/D changes in AFL Fantasy they've also had to have drop o*** in scoring. I can't think of any player who was averaging mid premium numbers that actually got it.

It's probably the worst part about AFL Fantasy of all its bad aspects (there are a lot). Not because it's a bad idea itself but because the complete lack of logic, consistency or rationale in the changes combined with the non-existent transparency on what the changes are based or who is going to change make it a complete crapshoot and just make it feel like they throw darts at a wall and randomly change a few players, often it seems to bail out common players that are tanking seasons.
 
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Carlton
#70
Here we go again...

Genuinely an interesting topic this year. Think there's more options than usual, feels like the top 2 have come back to the pack, especially Gawn who was pretty "terrible" over the 2nd half of the season.

Marshall - Torn here, he's a solid chance of getting R/F I reckon but I wouldn't start him for that hope and I think he's in a ruck share. Hasn't actually proven he can score well enough even as a lone ruck to be honest although I really love him as a player and he's definitely the guy I'd take as a breakout of all the options. Especially if Ryder weren't there.

Averaged 110 in his third year after only playing 13 games. Had a run of 9 games averaging 127 before tiring for the last 3 of the year.

The first year of sharing with Ryder was the Covid-shortened games, which had to hamper those in a ruck-share. Still averaged 104.

Last year every St. Kilda ruckman was injured or absent for fair chunks of games, so hard to get a proper read. Due to the foot, Marshall had a compromised pre-season and started late (round 4). Missed the next game, played for a month, then had another 5 weeks on the sidelines. He then played 8 of the last 9, averaging 114 for the last 7 and 120 for the last 5 (Ryder missed the last 4 games).

To my observations, he can certainly score as the lone/main ruck. Sharing with Ryder is the issue. When the season starts, Marshall is 26 and Ryder 34. Logic says the younger guys share percentage will only grow. If he is fully fit, he could be anything IMO.
 
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Collingwood
#72
Think trac is the obvious one
Felt Everytime he was about to rip a game a part last year he went forward. I was deliberately trying to avoid starting players that rest forward lots in danger/trac/Bont types but now with the dpp opening up i’m awfully tempted to start trac over Oliver
Easy switch and will be f1
Gawn the same swapping with Jackson if the gf is anything to go by I reckon they’re closer to 60-40 split this year
always seems safe to start guys that are on the ball 90% of the time neale/Oliver/Steele/Touk but this might be a bit of a game changer
even titch started at half forward alot of those games towards the end of the year before pushing into the midfield. Imagine titch as a dpp

My mind is boggled but I’m happy. I suggested that change on the supercoach post when they asked questions at the end of last year and they’ve listened. I felt fantasy was way a head of the game with their rolling dpp changes and supercoach have done us justice!
DT Talk have Petracca as attending (I assume that means starting) 79% of CBA last season.

I always thought it was just based on starting CB positions but then I am sure I read years ago that stoppages (ie ball ups and throw ins) are also taken into account to determine "starting" positions.

Either way it is good to see some changes , maybe one day it will be even more realistic and we have to select KPD , KPF & wingman in our starting sides.

Baby steps
 
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#73
DT Talk have Petracca as attending (I assume that means starting) 79% of CBA last season.

I always thought it was just based on starting CB positions but then I am sure I read years ago that stoppages (ie ball ups and throw ins) are also taken into account to determine "starting" positions.

Either way it is good to see some changes , maybe one day it will be even more realistic and we have to select KPD , KPF & wingman in our starting sides.

Baby steps
I thought they looked at heat maps as part of the decision.
 
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#75
I think he can but basically you've shown that for a few weeks he can put up numbers that are below the ruck standard of the past few years so I stand by the comment.

FWIW I love Marshall as a player, will probably pick him whenever Ryder is gone because I do think he's capable of 120+ as the #1 ruck but I don't think he's proven that yet and the numbers don't really show he's proven 115+ even at this point.

Probably all irrelevant this year anyway as the ruck share seems very likely to be ongoing.
 
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Carlton
#76
I think he can but basically you've shown that for a few weeks he can put up numbers that are below the ruck standard of the past few years so I stand by the comment.

FWIW I love Marshall as a player, will probably pick him whenever Ryder is gone because I do think he's capable of 120+ as the #1 ruck but I don't think he's proven that yet and the numbers don't really show he's proven 115+ even at this point.

Probably all irrelevant this year anyway as the ruck share seems very likely to be ongoing.
Fair enough and apologies for somehow messing up my previous response. I think I deleted the "quote" which meant my answer appeared as part of your post.

The fact that he averaged 110 in 2019 after having only played 13 games (1 in 2017 and 12 in 2018) says to me he is a special player. We can pick him as a ruck and sit back and see what happens with both him and the other top rucks. He will almost certainly score at keeper level from a forward perspective, so we are unlikely to be stuck with a dud pick.

If he rucks less than 65% he will gain forward DPP and we have 6 weeks data to decide who to replace him with in the ruck. If he rucks more than 65% I'm backing him to improve on that 110 from 3 years ago (he hasn't had the chance to do this in the interim due to covid-shortening and then injury). That would make him a good pick at his price.
 

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#78
Isn't the key to Marshall to find out what he averages with/without Ryder.

@Connoisseur may have this figures at his finger tips 😀
R Marshall:
With Ryder since 2020: 98.95 from 20 (5/20 below 80, 11/20 below 100, 4/20 120+)
2020: 104.07 from 13 (low of 70 and a high of 160, 3/13 below 80, 7/13 below 100, 3/13 120+)
2021: 89.43 from 7 (low of 43 and a high of 127, 2/7 below 80, 4/7 below 100, 1/7 120+)

Without Ryder since 2020: 106.6 from 10 (2/10 below 80, 4/10 below 100, 5/10 120+)
2020: 102.5 from 4 (low of 76 and a high of 128, 2/4 below 100, 1/4 120+)
2021: 109.33 from 6 (low of 50 and a high of 158, 2/6 below 80, 4/6 120+)

The 2021 figure is below an 90 average as the 43 scored in RD9 from 52% TOG is included (did not return from this injury until RD15). Removing this match he has averaged 103.52 in the last two seasons and if we added an extra 60 points onto his RD9 score then his average with Ryder would become 101.95.
 
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Collingwood
#79
R Marshall:
With Ryder since 2020: 98.95 from 20 (5/20 below 80, 11/20 below 100, 4/20 120+)
2020: 104.07 from 13 (low of 70 and a high of 160, 3/13 below 80, 7/13 below 100, 3/13 120+)
2021: 89.43 from 7 (low of 43 and a high of 127, 2/7 below 80, 4/7 below 100, 1/7 120+)

Without Ryder since 2020: 106.6 from 10 (2/10 below 80, 4/10 below 100, 5/10 120+)
2020: 102.5 from 4 (low of 76 and a high of 128, 2/4 below 100, 1/4 120+)
2021: 109.33 from 6 (low of 50 and a high of 158, 2/6 below 80, 4/6 120+)
Cheers , I knew you would have the info ready.

For some reason I thought the difference was larger.
 
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Carlton
#80
Isn't the key to Marshall to find out what he averages with/without Ryder.

@Connoisseur may have this figures at his finger tips 😀
Yes is the short answer.

However the 2 years since they have played together have been a bit harder to read than normal. 2020 saw the shortened games which would have heavily impacted a genuine ruck-share arrangement. In 2021 they both missed games, but Marshall was certainly underdone until at least late in the year.

Surely St. Kilda are not going to increase Ryder's ruck minutes at the expense of Marshall - it will likely head the other way given the respective ages. If Marshall is fit, even his "foward" minutes are going to be spent roaming up the ground, given the saints have King and Membrey down there.
 
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