Position 2023: Ruck Discussion

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Don’t rate the DC pick as long as Cox is in the side. As the year went on he started to score worse as Cox got more ruck time. Ultimately I think he’s not good enough as a tap ruck for him to score well enough sharing the ruck and I think the early scores sharing the ruck are inherently unsustainable for that reason. Also totally unproven til last year, which is slightly different when you’ve never had the opportunity to play majority ruck before, but is still a concern.

Went 93 in full games where he rucked with Cox last year including finals but if they share this year I don’t see that being more than 85.
 
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Melbourne paying 700k a year to have Grundy is a huge factor in telling you what their intentions are in using him. They wouldn’t have a guy eat up that much salary cap to only play 50% of his time in the ruck. This doesn’t mean he will play well or they’ll stick to it but i I think it does tell me their intentions in signing him
 
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Melbourne paying 700k a year to have Grundy is a huge factor in telling you what their intentions are in using him. They wouldn’t have a guy eat up that much salary cap to only play 50% of his time in the ruck. This doesn’t mean he will play well or they’ll stick to it but i I think it does tell me their intentions in signing him
Or they knew Jackson was leaving and wanted a big mobile guy who could kick 10-20 in a season. I see the move hurting Grundy's scores more than Gawns.
 
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Or they knew Jackson was leaving and wanted a big mobile guy who could kick 10-20 in a season. I see the move hurting Grundy's scores more than Gawns.
700k to use Grundy as a forward doesn’t make sense to me, he’s not good as a forward and would only kick 15 in a year playing forward full time. If you’re playing him 50% forward that’s not an investment I can wrap my head around, signs point to him being used as the main ruck, which will be 60% if I guess and will hurt his scoring. But again he’s coming off a high base historically so 60% of the ruck share and 70% of game time in the ruck could be enough for a 100avg, I believe it will. Gawn has shown he can score well sharing the ruck and he’s the better player away from stoppage with his marking ability. He had 62% of the ruck share last year to Jackson’s 38%, his ruck share had been trending down in recent times and he’s shown he can play well in other positions, Grundy cannot
 
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I dont think it changes a great deal personally, you still have just as much risk that Cox comes in from Round 2 onwards and ruins his role.
I would argue much less risk because as of round one they judge their best 22 to have DC rucking solo and are backing him in for that, the upside is there if he can solo ruck, especially with his flexibility to be moved fwd
 
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I would argue much less risk because as of round one they judge their best 22 to have DC rucking solo and are backing him in for that, the upside is there if he can solo ruck, especially with his flexibility to be moved fwd
Think it will just be horses for courses based on the opposition, some will favour picking two Rucks and others they will go with one, dont think it will be as simple as them thinking its their best 22 isnt how football clubs operate these days.

I'd be baffled if Cameron goes solo against Stanley and Blicavs for the record.
 
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Grundy is a real hard one.

There's such a huge "got his contract and doesn't care" about him. Downward trend for 4 straight seasons to the point where his team gave him away. His starting average is his legitimate average from last year and now he's in a ruck share with the best ruckman in the league. This is a guy who's never been good when ruck sharing.

Really Grundy's "shining light" this year is he's such a terrible forward that we're all assuming he'll get the lion's share of the ruckwork but the reality is Gawn isn't a very good forward either and he's a much better ruckman.

Also worth noting that the list of ruckman who averaged 95+ while in a ruck share was Gawn last year and his ruck share was still dominant enough that his partner got FWD status this season. Best guys in genuine ruck shares were Marshall, OMc and and Goldy, and Goldy the pick of them at 93.

Grundy might be good, maybe the Pies basically paying to get rid of him will light a fire that hasn't been there since he got his contract and he comes out firing, maybe they Gawn has added significant forward skill and basically allows Grundy to ruck 70%+ but that's a lot of maybes for what is not a significant discount.

FWIW, I think most of this applies to Gawn also, wouldn't shock me if either were still the top ruck but I wouldn't back it at the same time.

For mine the top 5 rucks removing durability is English, Darcy, Marshall, NicNat and Witts but for the first 4 durability is an enormous factor that really can't be ignored. I think both Gawn and Grundy could be in that group and ROB is really just his midfield dragging him along from being capable also but his lack of ruck skill is definitely a worry and I'm not sold he has the midfield to do that and he's not really shown anything to suggest his ruckwork can improve, he can't jump and he's already big and strong so I'm just not sure he can add it, especially given he looks genuinely uncoordinated in all facets and that holds up with the tapwork.

Again, the rucks are a nightmare and I'm still yet to settle on anything that resembles certainty.

The fact NicNat is now one of the most durable ruck options sums up the complete lunacy of the position.
Good thoughts.

Question with two rucks is whether they do old style play forward and ruck mix or does one drift back.

If Gawn was 60pct CBa and drift back so they are 50-50 overall RCs, I would back owning Gawn. As a forward he will be just too volatile it feels.

Grundy feels he need minimum 60-65pct CBA and then goes forward. Anything less and he struggles.

Nic Nat 8 games last year, 32 years old, durability was 2021.

Is esava plays do we make him r2 or r3, do we trust he keeps the role for 7-10 games given Hawkins. can change dynamics.

Port- will look to play around in preaeason game for rucks so doesnt help, finlayson not fully fit helps Lycett.

Need to analyse why did Witts drop away.

R2 and D3 (premium or not) where I keep seeing team changes.
 
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Cameron is an interesting one. Hard to correlate anything other than being late in the season with his poor scores. Tricky, because it's a small sample though. His lowest 4 scores came post rnd 17.
In his worst game, 45 sc points. He took the majority of ruck contests and CBAs. Hard to argue the Cox effect there. But there was the occasional game where Cox seemed to have a genuine effect on his scoring. Notably rounds 23 and 19.
Depends if they intend to use Cox more or the same as last year in the ruck. If it's the same, over the season DC is worth a fwd spot IMO.
 
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Think it will just be horses for courses based on the opposition, some will favour picking two Rucks and others they will go with one, dont think it will be as simple as them thinking its their best 22 isnt how football clubs operate these days.

I'd be baffled if Cameron goes solo against Stanley and Blicavs for the record.
I think Cox comes in during the year if not named R1 but it flags DC could ruck solo for long stretches and when he was rucking without Cox last year his scoring was elite. If he’s not named R1 it signals Cox isn’t really in the best side, especially because Geelong is a side where two rucks would work best. Like I said above don’t rate the DC pick because I don’t see him solo rucking
 

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Feel like after Marshall all the other rucks have issues.

Witts - quite clearly overpriced, scores came down to earth after a hot first half of the year and his DT to SC ratio was as high as it’s ever been, had better years in DT in the past than last year but never gone above 100 in SC before. Too many indicators point to regression. Run of early opponents was as easy as it gets.

Darcy - Scored well without massive ruck minutes back in 2021 but that came off some unsustainable performances up forward and he will spend even more time forward this year. Was far less impressive last year with him not looking 100% and now Jackson probably comes in to take a large chunk of the ruck share. Makes sense for them to play Darcy forward more where he’s decent and won’t get as hurt. Don’t love the pick atm but he has shown that upside in 2021 without huge ruck contests, so worth a watch. Also an injury risk.

English - Slow start to preseason, followed by a strain, followed by tightness doesn’t make me feel safe that the upside justifies the risk of injury. Concussion risk is also an issue. The scoring last year is impressive but has also been overrated, there’s only a small sample size of elite scoring and a genuinely small number of games where he went ballistic. Would pick without recent injury woes but won’t now.

Reilly O’Brien - I actually think he’s a cheaper version of Witts, pretty ugly to watch but he’s shown over 4 years that he’s a 95-low 100’s player and I think he’s a safe pick if no other options show up. Paying up for Witts seems crazy to me when ROB probably scores just as well, but don’t think ROB has any upside either or offers value.

Grundy - My pick of the bunch, which is crazy, but he has some potential value at least. With a better midfield underneath him and if he’s still as good as he was in 2021, I think he can go high 90’s - 105 with 60% of the ruck share and 70% of his game time played in the ruck. To guess this I’ve looked at previous scoring and points per minute, adjusted for a better midfield and deducted pts for every extra minute he’ll play as a forward, he still ends up averaging around 100. I do think he’s the main ruck, reports came out back in August that Gawn was willing to give up the no 1 ruck spot to get him at the club, seen word they got him in to help with Gawn’s injury concerns and workload in older age, and they’re paying him 700k a year, telling me they intend to play him in the only position he can really play. Has risks of course but the pick is better than I originally thought when looked at closely. Still don’t love it but it’s the best I can find.

****ing rucks.
Your thoughts on Draper if you have the time?
 

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Don’t rate the DC pick as long as Cox is in the side. As the year went on he started to score worse as Cox got more ruck time. Ultimately I think he’s not good enough as a tap ruck for him to score well enough sharing the ruck and I think the early scores sharing the ruck are inherently unsustainable for that reason. Also totally unproven til last year, which is slightly different when you’ve never had the opportunity to play majority ruck before, but is still a concern.

Went 93 in full games where he rucked with Cox last year including finals but if they share this year I don’t see that being more than 85.
Any thoughts on some of the below commentary?

Some posters are saying that DC was playing somewhat injured later in the year.

RCs below. He still had some decent scoring between R10 and the Essendon game in R19 (not sure if there was an injury) with RC% in the high 50s. Begg played the other games where Cox didn’t and the RC % wasn’t substantially different

3F1B76B2-4920-410B-82D2-418939333A81.jpeg
 
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Any thoughts on some of the below commentary?

Some posters are saying that DC was playing somewhat injured later in the year.



RCs below. He still had some decent scoring between R10 and the Essendon game in R19 (not sure if there was an injury) with RC% in the high 50s. Begg played the other games where Cox didn’t and the RC % wasn’t substantially different

View attachment 52733
I personally just don’t see the good scoring as sustainable because he’s only getting points from his ground level work and is splitting the ruck. I am keen on him if Cox isn’t in the round one side though because as the solo ruck with McStay pinch hitting he has big upside. I imagine Cox is in the side and pies try to keep one of Mihocek, McStay, Cox and DC on the bench at any given time to keep the smaller forward line
 
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