General Discussion

Joined
23 Mar 2012
Messages
19,855
Likes
929
AFL Club
Carlton
However, what happens if the State of Origin game is played in a single bye round (mid season) and a player like Selwood gets injured? We know Selwood would love to play State of Origin and he would go in just as hard and tough as ever. Geelong as a club/team playing for premiership points, don't want to see one of their stars get injured pre-season, mid season or at any point.

The clubs would want the power over which players they would allow to play State of Origin. However, if the clubs only allow mid-lower end types of players with no real star power, the game will not be very popular from an audience point of view.

As a Carlton supporter, if Murphy or Gibbs got a 8-10 week injury in State of Origin how pi$$ed would you be?
Absolutely, which is why you would never bring back State of Origin games in the actual home and away season.

I think the perfect time for it is about 3 or 4 weeks before the home and away season starts. Yes, a player could still get injured and miss quite a few home and away games but the pros outweigh the cons in this case for overall game. The one or two week niggly injuries not a factor then (they are in middle of home and away season) and the other thing is it gives the best players something to really look forward to in pre-season and there are no meaningful club games on in early to mid March now so playing State of Origin then I think would be ideal. if it is ever to find a place in the football calender surely early March when players ready for a meaningful games and not restricted by home and away games is the way to go. I think it is only time in football calendar when you got more chance of it being embraced by the most amount of players, supporters and weakest resistance by clubs. Any other time just will not work.
 

fodzilla

Rising Star Nominee
Joined
26 Sep 2014
Messages
62
Likes
15
If it's ever going to find a meaningful place it has to be a meaningful game, not an exhibition or a glorified practice match. Origin works in rugby because players and fans alike take it seriously. There just doesn't seem to be the passion anywhere for it in Australian Rules.
 
Joined
18 Jun 2012
Messages
6,156
Likes
12,128
AFL Club
Melbourne
If it's ever going to find a meaningful place it has to be a meaningful game, not an exhibition or a glorified practice match. Origin works in rugby because players and fans alike take it seriously. There just doesn't seem to be the passion anywhere for it in Australian Rules.
Agreed.

I guess the other reason that State of Origin has worked better in Rugby is that aside from Victoria, no other state has a team located in it. This means that the NRL can build up state of origin as basically NSW and QLD still have a monopoly on the rivalry component.

Personally I think State of Origin in the Afl, really only worked when it was basically VIC V SA V Was, even that's probably one to many for the rivalrys to be maintained.

The AFL has clearly had a bigger focus on building the 'National' game and State of Origin as we knew it, has been the price paid for the National game.
 
Joined
23 Mar 2012
Messages
19,855
Likes
929
AFL Club
Carlton
Finally found some actual update on what is going on about Thompson's fine.

from news.com.au

I just read this

MARK Thompson appears certain to pay his AFL-imposed $30,000 fine for his part in Essendon’s supplements saga, but will lobby the club to contribute.
The AFL has given Thompson until Thursday’s commission meeting to finally pay the fine imposed by the league in August last year.
Thompson had refused to cough up the cash, initially awaiting the outcome of Essendon’s Federal Court challenge to the joint AFL-ASADA investigation and then arguing AFL chief medical officer Dr Peter Harcourt breached a “non-disparagement” agreement with his controversial speech at a Zurich conference.
Both of those avenues ultimately came to dead-ends, and with his departure from Essendon confirmed on Wednesday, it’s believed Thompson now wants to pay the fine and move on.
But the dual premiership coach believes the Bombers should chip in, despite the club stating it won’t pay.
“There might be some more negotiations with Essendon,” Thompson’s lawyer Chris Pollard said yesterday.
“They haven’t offered to pay it. Hopefully they’ll be sensitive enough to do that, but it’s to be determined. Essendon are just in a state of disarray at the moment so who knows? They change day by day.”
Thompson has told confidants he is most likely to walk away from the game forever. It is unclear what power, if any, the AFL would have to force him to pay the fine if he did walk away for good.
But Pollard said Thompson’s signed deed of settlement left him with little room to manoeuvre.
“That’s really a contract to pay the fine,” he said.
 
Joined
25 Mar 2012
Messages
4,834
Likes
1,761
AFL Club
North Melb.
Absolutely, which is why you would never bring back State of Origin games in the actual home and away season.

I think the perfect time for it is about 3 or 4 weeks before the home and away season starts. Yes, a player could still get injured and miss quite a few home and away games but the pros outweigh the cons in this case for overall game. The one or two week niggly injuries not a factor then (they are in middle of home and away season) and the other thing is it gives the best players something to really look forward to in pre-season and there are no meaningful club games on in early to mid March now so playing State of Origin then I think would be ideal. if it is ever to find a place in the football calender surely early March when players ready for a meaningful games and not restricted by home and away games is the way to go. I think it is only time in football calendar when you got more chance of it being embraced by the most amount of players, supporters and weakest resistance by clubs. Any other time just will not work.
That's my point though, if a player gets a 6+ week injury 3-4 weeks before round 1 the club itself cops the penalty. A superstar like Selwood missing 2 or 3 early games, would hinder Geelong in those first games in regards to ticket sales and could cost Geelong H&A points. Why would a club risk a player in a game that does not benefit them? Having one State of Origin game wouldn't be any more beneficial than the NAB Challenge which benefits all teams equally and i believe has a financial prize.

Pros:
AFL and fans benefit for one huge pre-season game.
Star players have a big game in the pre-season.

Cons:
Clubs take a huge risk with star players.
Players not in peak condition (pre-season and early season injury risks).
Players aren't at the peak of their skills (first few rounds skill levels are down).
Not much if any financial benefit to clubs.

This is just my opinion.
 
Joined
23 Mar 2012
Messages
19,855
Likes
929
AFL Club
Carlton
That's my point though, if a player gets a 6+ week injury 3-4 weeks before round 1 the club itself cops the penalty. A superstar like Selwood missing 2 or 3 early games, would hinder Geelong in those first games in regards to ticket sales and could cost Geelong H&A points. Why would a club risk a player in a game that does not benefit them? Having one State of Origin game wouldn't be any more beneficial than the NAB Challenge which benefits all teams equally and i believe has a financial prize.

Pros:
AFL and fans benefit for one huge pre-season game.
Star players have a big game in the pre-season.

Cons:
Clubs take a huge risk with star players.
Players not in peak condition (pre-season and early season injury risks).
Players aren't at the peak of their skills (first few rounds skill levels are down).
Not much if any financial benefit to clubs.

This is just my opinion.
Yeah, I understand that all mate.
In fact that is the prevailing view and why it sadly will probably never come back.
However that does not change my own personal view that it should happen for the games sake and clubs just need to suck it up and realize, yep, you may lose a gun player, but that is always a risk in training and practice games anyway. The reality is it is slim chance but club's and players need to be realistic and accept risk is always going to be there. You cannot live in a bubble and assume your players will get injured. More often than not, a club will lose no one and the benefit for the game should be the winner to have a week or two of the most elite football seen.

Players have been training house down for months and I cannot believe after one or two practice matches and skills training that the best players in game for their state are going to go into State of Origin football in March and not be putting on something close to their best and be ultra fresh and enthusiastic for it.

Give an example of how it could work:

First Weekend of State of Origin

Division One
Game One: Tasmania v Victoria
Game Two: WA v SA

Division Two
Queensland v Northern Territory
ACT v NSW

Finals Weekend of State of Origin
Division One
Australian Championship Final
Winner of game 1 v Winner of game 2

Loser of game 1 v Loser of game 2
(loser relegated to Division Two the following year)

Division Two Final
(two winners from weekend one play off with the winner advancing to division one the following year)


Whilst these two weekends of state of origin goes on, the AFL clubs still play their practice matches as they do now with no title up for grabs. Just simple club practice matches in regional zones as they do now. However the pre-season focus for the AFL as a whole would be on the State of Origin carnival.

State of Origin footy will never work during the actual club home and away season. It will also never work in October or November when footy season is really over so the only time it could work is in early to mid March at the same time the pre-season cup used to take place. Now we got rid of that, it is perfect time to really give state games a chance to exist at niche time in year. Find a place where they can be played, looked forward to and have time for very best players in game to represent their state and feel it had real meaning. It is up to the AFL to give it a red hot go. There is no reason at all the players would not embrace it. In fact I think the best players in the game would love to have it at such a time and give them more a reward for all the long pre-season hark yakka they do and have some games of meaning to be looking forward to rather than glorified club practice matches. Any risk of injuries just have to be accepted as reality like any game at any time. The actual game of footy needs something for best players to aim for than just their clubs season. By that I mean representative footy of our own game. State of Origin is highest level that can be played. It should not be sacrificed forever simply to appease clubs for short sighted views.
 

DeliciousJedi

100 Games Club
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
750
Likes
29
I know a lot of players want to and would play. However, what happens if the State of Origin game is played in March (pre season) or in a single bye round (mid season) and a player like Selwood gets injured? We know Selwood would love to play State of Origin and he would go in just as hard and tough as ever. Geelong as a club/team playing for premiership points, don't want to see one of their stars get injured pre-season, mid season or at any point.

This is one of the problems i can see the AFL having, getting the actual clubs on board. Clubs are mostly worried about money and premiership points. Clubs don't want to see their superstars play in a game that doesn't help them financially and an injury could actually hurt them financially. The clubs would want the power over which players they would allow to play State of Origin. However, if the clubs only allow mid-lower end types of players with no real star power, the game will not be very popular from an audience point of view.

As a Carlton supporter, if Murphy or Gibbs got a 8-10 week injury in State of Origin how pi$$ed would you be?
I dont think that's really a valid excuse, most American pro leagues have All-Star games mid-season. Sky hasn't fallen there with possibility of star players getting injured, so I don't think it'd be that big a hurdle if the league was legitimate about SOR. But as they're not, it's just another easy excuse. And the more years we go by without it (mickey mouse bs aside) the more the apathy grows between fans too.
 
Joined
25 Mar 2012
Messages
4,834
Likes
1,761
AFL Club
North Melb.
I dont think that's really a valid excuse, most American pro leagues have All-Star games mid-season. Sky hasn't fallen there with possibility of star players getting injured, so I don't think it'd be that big a hurdle if the league was legitimate about SOR. But as they're not, it's just another easy excuse. And the more years we go by without it (mickey mouse bs aside) the more the apathy grows between fans too.
What you see as mickey mouse bs, AFL clubs would probably see as a loss of money if a star player goes down. That's what everything comes down to, money. Can the AFL make Origin profitable for the league and clubs. If they can't then there is absolutely no point in doing it.
To compare the American All-Star games, you have to find out more information. Like do the players get paid for it, do the teams the players normally play for get compensated if an injury occurs, do the players have specific clauses in their contracts regarding All-Star games etc etc. Just because it works for American sports doesn't mean it will work the same for AFL.
You also have to look at the sports they play over there that have All-Star type games. Basketball, NFL and baseball would all have those exhibition games. 2 of which are non-contact sports where the risk of injury is pretty minimal. The other (NFL) has nothing in common with AFL.

Pre-season games are meant to replicate home and away conditions and should be used for the whole team to practice together, try new things, work on set plays and for their coaches to work with their players. A pre-season Origin challenge takes all of that away from players clubs. You could have an Origin challenge and a NAB challenge but then the whole season becomes even longer and just seems unnecessary.

I would love to see State of Origin back! Seeing just the best of the best playing would be awesome, but it has to come back where it legitimately works for all involved and the fans. I'm sure the AFL has had smarter people than me working on it in the past and possibly has ideas floating around now. However, as you guys have said, the longer Origin is away the less likely it will come back.

I would like to hear more views and opinions on State of Origin and how the AFL could best bring it back.
 

DeliciousJedi

100 Games Club
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
750
Likes
29
What you see as mickey mouse bs, AFL clubs would probably see as a loss of money if a star player goes down. That's what everything comes down to, money. Can the AFL make Origin profitable for the league and clubs. If they can't then there is absolutely no point in doing it.
To compare the American All-Star games, you have to find out more information. Like do the players get paid for it, do the teams the players normally play for get compensated if an injury occurs, do the players have specific clauses in their contracts regarding All-Star games etc etc. Just because it works for American sports doesn't mean it will work the same for AFL.
You also have to look at the sports they play over there that have All-Star type games. Basketball, NFL and baseball would all have those exhibition games. 2 of which are non-contact sports where the risk of injury is pretty minimal. The other (NFL) has nothing in common with AFL.

Pre-season games are meant to replicate home and away conditions and should be used for the whole team to practice together, try new things, work on set plays and for their coaches to work with their players. A pre-season Origin challenge takes all of that away from players clubs. You could have an Origin challenge and a NAB challenge but then the whole season becomes even longer and just seems unnecessary.

I would love to see State of Origin back! Seeing just the best of the best playing would be awesome, but it has to come back where it legitimately works for all involved and the fans. I'm sure the AFL has had smarter people than me working on it in the past and possibly has ideas floating around now. However, as you guys have said, the longer Origin is away the less likely it will come back.

I would like to hear more views and opinions on State of Origin and how the AFL could best bring it back.
What I was referring to with "mickey mouse bs" in brackets was the Victoria v Dream Team sideshow a few years ago that was nothing more than a VFL-wankfest. Which is no way to properly bring back SOR.

Except teams somehow managed to do it fine before with releasing players, and in leagues I've given examples of those teams still manage to find a way to do it successful. However the "cost".

I don't hear anyone saying their team lost a chance at the premiership because of SOR from '77 to '99. So that excuse is out the window too.

You're also being disingenuous saying those other sports don't have as many injuries. Injuries are still occurring in ice hockey, baseball, basketball and american football, regardless of prevalence. It's not some monopoly that Aussie Rules has, that's strange.

Also of course it's not going to work exactly like those other sports but throwing them out of consideration altogether when you can look at what they do and how those leagues make it work is just wrong. Broadening horizons is how to learn new things, ways to adapt, not sticking your head in the sand. Can even start by seeing what NRL does for a start with getting players into SOR teams.

If the league was legitimate in their attempt to bring back SOR, team's selfish concerns about their players would not enter into it. The AFL would negotiate with the PFA, and do whatever needs to be done, they would market and organise it properly, and the team's voices of outcry would only be a small one.

In short, if they want to bring it back, they are more than capable of doing it since SOR has happened before, and similar matches still happen in other sports, all without being worse off because of it.

Whether it should be held in the pre-season is another discussion altogether. Organise something around bye times, be creative, extending the season isn't a bad thing, especially not for the AFL who are trying their best (see Trade Week...month) to get as much year-round exposure as possible.
 

IDIG

Leadership Group
Joined
8 Mar 2012
Messages
35,326
Likes
20,503
AFL Club
Essendon
Anyone hear about Daniel Kerr? Apparently got locked up (and back out now) for pouring petrol around someone's house and threatening to set it alight!

Could be slightly off here but that's what i'm certain i hear this morning.
 
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
4,030
Likes
2,749
Anyone hear about Daniel Kerr? Apparently got locked up (and back out now) for pouring petrol around someone's house and threatening to set it alight!

Could be slightly off here but that's what i'm certain i hear this morning.
Correct, story broke last week.

Family held off paying the bail because they feared for his wellbeing.
 
Joined
28 Jun 2012
Messages
5,423
Likes
3,701
AFL Club
Bulldogs
What I was referring to with "mickey mouse bs" in brackets was the Victoria v Dream Team sideshow a few years ago that was nothing more than a VFL-wankfest. Which is no way to properly bring back SOR.

Except teams somehow managed to do it fine before with releasing players, and in leagues I've given examples of those teams still manage to find a way to do it successful. However the "cost".

I don't hear anyone saying their team lost a chance at the premiership because of SOR from '77 to '99. So that excuse is out the window too.

You're also being disingenuous saying those other sports don't have as many injuries. Injuries are still occurring in ice hockey, baseball, basketball and american football, regardless of prevalence. It's not some monopoly that Aussie Rules has, that's strange.

Also of course it's not going to work exactly like those other sports but throwing them out of consideration altogether when you can look at what they do and how those leagues make it work is just wrong. Broadening horizons is how to learn new things, ways to adapt, not sticking your head in the sand. Can even start by seeing what NRL does for a start with getting players into SOR teams.

If the league was legitimate in their attempt to bring back SOR, team's selfish concerns about their players would not enter into it. The AFL would negotiate with the PFA, and do whatever needs to be done, they would market and organise it properly, and the team's voices of outcry would only be a small one.

In short, if they want to bring it back, they are more than capable of doing it since SOR has happened before, and similar matches still happen in other sports, all without being worse off because of it.

Whether it should be held in the pre-season is another discussion altogether. Organise something around bye times, be creative, extending the season isn't a bad thing, especially not for the AFL who are trying their best (see Trade Week...month) to get as much year-round exposure as possible.
Bad luck if a player gets injured IMO. Players are injured in national games all the time (soccer)

Even if it was just VIC vs SA I'd be thrilled with that. With billion dollar TV rights and a sell out at the G or AO you can also give the players a healthy pay check.

Some might say what about players from QLD, WA, TAS etc, well it's either a gimmick game of WA vs the rest or again just bad luck lol.

Gun soccer players like Ryan Giggs, Ian Rush never played a World Cup game due to their nationality, Garth Bale probably never will. Cantons and George best didnt either. So bad luck if a gun WAer never gets to play a meaningful SOA game. VIC and SA has the history and ability to make it the second most popular game after the GF
 

DeliciousJedi

100 Games Club
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
750
Likes
29
Bad luck if a player gets injured IMO. Players are injured in national games all the time (soccer)

Even if it was just VIC vs SA I'd be thrilled with that. With billion dollar TV rights and a sell out at the G or AO you can also give the players a healthy pay check.

Some might say what about players from QLD, WA, TAS etc, well it's either a gimmick game of WA vs the rest or again just bad luck lol.

Gun soccer players like Ryan Giggs, Ian Rush never played a World Cup game due to their nationality, Garth Bale probably never will. Cantons and George best didnt either. So bad luck if a gun WAer never gets to play a meaningful SOA game. VIC and SA has the history and ability to make it the second most popular game after the GF
I'm not sure if this is tongue-in-cheek because that's what it reads like. Why would you want a SOR series just between two states? A World Cup has no similarity to a SOR game, so not sure how that has bearing either.
 
Joined
16 Dec 2013
Messages
2,335
Likes
2,990
AFL Club
Essendon
"THE AFL has unveiled a radical overhaul of its tribunal system that also loosens the rules for Brownlow Medal eligibility.

Under a new format the demerit points system and carry-over points have been abandoned, replaced by a more flexible system.

All low-level penalties that once drew one-match bans will now see players handed fines, with only a third low-level offence in a season triggering a suspension.

Under new Brownlow rules, a player must be suspended to be ineligible, so can win the award despite accepting fines for tummy taps, low-level strikes and low-level rough conduct.

Incidents last year assessed as level-one penalties worth 125 points (therefore one week) will now only draw a fine of $1500, or $1000 with a guilty plea.

Of 61 players ruled ineligible for the Brownlow last season, 34 were as a result of 125-point offences which will now be penalised with a fine.

It was forecast in the Brownlow Medal review mid-year, with the AFL Commission approving AFL football boss Mark Evans’ proposal over the weekend.

Evans said the old rules around the Brownlow Medal hit too many players who were forced to take reprimands.

“It takes away those players who plead guilty to a reprimand and were able to play but had lost Brownlow eligibility, so we think this is an improvement for today’s football particularly given the forensic analysis of football and the role of the match review panel,’’ he said.

The league has also loosened its controversial accidental head clash rule after incidents this year involving Fremantle’s Nathan Fyfe and North Melbourne’s Brent Harvey.

The match review panel can now consider a range of six factors and use more common sense.

Fyfe would likely still be penalised but Harvey would get off on insufficient force.

The factors the panel can consider include whether the player bumped was in play or protected himself, whether the bumping player left the ground, whether there was an alternative to the bump, and the force used.

Evans said Fyfe would still likely have been suspended but believes there is now room for discretion.

“We still need to be very protective of the head in bumping contests but we do accept there can be a reason to process a head clash differently to a shoulder to head clash,” he said.

“In that particular case the MRP would have to determine did he have other options and they would say he had other options.”

Under the review the three levels of grading — reckless, negligent, intentional — have been reduced to two — careless or intentional.

Players will now receive a week’s discount for a guilty plea but the discount for a good record is abolished.

Players who have served two weeks of suspension in the past 24 months have a bad record loading applied, which sees an extra match levied.

There is still a table of offences for the match review panel to formulate bans, but much more discretion is allowed.

The match review panel hands any offence worth more than three weeks to the tribunal and can escalate the impact of an incident which could cause injury, effectively bumping up the penalty.

THE AFL’S TRIBUNAL OVERHAUL

KEY POINTS

- No more complicated demerit points, just penalties of weeks’ suspension or fines

-Just two gradings systems - careless or intentional - rather than the three confusing gradings

-The MRP uses a simplified tick-the-box system but can sent reports to the tribunal if ban doesn’t fit the crime.

-All low-level incidents which once drew 125 points (reprimand with guilty plea) now replaced by $1500 fine.

-Any MRP charge with a suspension over three weeks goes direct to the tribunal

-Players must be suspended to be ineligible for the Brownlow, so can be fined for tummy taps and border-line hits and still win it.

-Players still get a week discount for a guilty plea and still get an extra week for a bad record

-Accidental head clashes are now not automatically reportable, with discretion for the MRP to let players off

ACCIDENTAL HEAD-TO-HEAD CONTACT

-In 2014 a player who bumped was responsible for any contact he made, even in an accidental head clash.

-In 2015 the MRP and tribunal has discretion to allow a player to escape penalty and has six factors to consider.

They are:

-The degree of force

-If the bumped player was actively involved in play?

-How far the player who bumped ran to make contact?

-Could the bumped player protect himself?

-Did the bumping player leave the ground?

-Was there an alternative for the player who bumps?"

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...edal-eligibility/story-fni5f22o-1227134815744

All fantastic moves in my opinion.
 
Joined
23 Mar 2012
Messages
19,855
Likes
929
AFL Club
Carlton
What I really want to know now, is what is happening with Mark Thompson as far as the fine he has not paid ?
Finally......

Thompson's $30,000 fine finally paid
Nat Edwards November 25, 2014 9:10 PM

FORMER coach Mark Thompson's $30,000 fine for his involvement in Essendon's doping scandal has finally been paid, but reports suggest the club footed the bulk of the bill.

Essendon contributed an estimated $25,000 of the total, leaving Thompson to cover the remainder, according to The Age.

Thompson faced a ban from attending AFL games if he did not pay the fine, which was three weeks overdue.

The former interim coach was slapped with the penalty for his part in the Bombers' 2012 supplements program, which has since seen 34 past and present players issued with infraction notices.

It has also been reported that Thompson was seeking a substantial payout from the Bombers after he was told a fortnight ago there would be no role for him at the club next year.

The 51-year-old reportedly met with Essendon chairman Paul Little on Tuesday to discuss a disagreement over disparagement clauses in his exit agreement.
that from afl.com.au

So it turns out they would have banned him from attending AFL games.
That was all I really wanted to know.
Finally all sorted.
 
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
4,030
Likes
2,749
Kerr given altered bail conditions so he can attend 2 weddings. Can only hope I get the same treatment if I get get caught threatening to burn people alive.
 
Joined
24 Aug 2012
Messages
194
Likes
97
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Hey guys, I'm just starting to gear up for 2015. I was wondering if anyone can tell me why Kieren Jack missed round 1 this year? Wasn't he a late withdrawal from memory?? Back?
 
Top