Position 2021: Ruck Discussion

Which ruck setup are you planning on starting with?

  • Gawn/Grundy/Flynn

    Votes: 82 47.4%
  • Gawn/Grundy/Meek

    Votes: 5 2.9%
  • Gawn/Grundy/Hunter

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • Gawn/Flynn/Meek

    Votes: 25 14.5%
  • Gawn/Flynn/Hunter

    Votes: 11 6.4%
  • Gawn/Meek/Hunter

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Grundy/Flynn/Meek

    Votes: 14 8.1%
  • Grundy/Flynn/Hunter

    Votes: 9 5.2%
  • Grundy/Meek/Hunter

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 17 9.8%

  • Total voters
    173
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This right here is the crux of SC 2021 I feel.
Its gonna take big balls and the downside is disaster.

For the first time in years we have 3 or so viable ruck rookies. If only they could present at a staggered interval and rinse and repeat !

I was going to post about the reduction in stoppages and see if anyone had any stats, because that was what i had also noticed, great job as always Wogitalia.
If this is the case, and there are real question marks with the rule changes, I can only see upside in not picking a $750k player priced at 140 ave, picking a Flynn/Meek type and adding a 600k mid who should ave 110+ with the extra funds.

“Shark moves”to quote another SC player and food for thought.

No Rucks.JPG

I have been considering taking a set against the rucks for a few weeks now and the scores and general play over the weekend has made my mind up.

I am in.... balls deep.

Had a great year last year (63rd overall) and I know that a finish that high 2 years in row is a real long shot so I am happy to take a risk this year.
 
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I had a quick look and hitout numbers last weekend seemed to be fairly similar to numbers from last season. Obviously last season was 20% shorter game time, but you need to balance that with the lack of pressure in a pre-season game.

I think that there will be a bit of a drop off, maybe 10% or so early on, but I expect this will lessen and games will go more towards the usual congestion over the course of the season as clubs adapt. Worth considering, but I wouldn't trash your whole team out of fear of a major drop.
 
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I love a Hail Mary team but I would always lose my nerve. My only suggestion / comment would be if you’re going to take that much risk in one part of the ground, look for some safer picks elsewhere. Kelly and Fyfe is just asking for trouble.
 
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I'd be curious to see how these kind of numbers weigh up against pre seasons in the past to get an idea if it's actually a trend that's showing or just what happens in contests that aren't for 4 points with extra players etc.

Had a great year last year (63rd overall) and I know that a finish that high 2 years in row is a real long shot so I am happy to take a risk this year.
Or we get too cute after a strong year and try to pull a rabbit out of the hat - explains why I only seem to have a good season every second year :p
 
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I'd be curious to see how these kind of numbers weigh up against pre seasons in the past to get an idea if it's actually a trend that's showing or just what happens in contests that aren't for 4 points with extra players etc.


Or we get too cute after a strong year and try to pull a rabbit out of the hat - explains why I only seem to have a good season every second year :p
I have a good year every 4 or 5 years so I am just taking a flyer until 2025 when I am due again :)
 
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I think one needs to be careful when trying to extrapolate a trend from preseason games into season proper. For example, I doubt we have been able to see the true effect on player fatigue as a result of reduced rotations and return to full length quarters; teams have had squads of 26 to play the preseason games vs 22 come round 1. I'm also interested to see how wet weather impacts teams aggressiveness through the corridor. The safe play in wet weather games has usually been to force a stoppage down the line. I'm inclined to think this trend continues despite teams playing more through the middle in preseason. All in all, definitely something to monitor and will no doubt look back with interest.
Always difficult to extrapolate, for sure, but the hitouts have been a constant through all the rule changes and wildness, so there's that.

Not sure how the fatigue will impact but in general I'm not sure fatigue causes more stoppages, generally the talk around restricting interchange is one of the anti-congestion measures to tire players and restrict their ability to swarm and that the game opens up late in quarters when players tire.

Wet weather is a very overrated factor also for mine. It can't be more than about 10 games a season that get impacted by it nowadays with a game in Perth and QLD every week and half the Vic games in the dome. On top of that you'd need the relevant rucks to be in the rain every time for it to actually matter.

The really interesting thing with the observation if it were to hold up is that anyone who doesn't allow for it get's trapped by it, it could be a genuinely monumental advantage to be on the other side of it. Essentially you've had Gawn and Grundy significantly overpriced (and any mids it would drag with it) while those playing against it would be heavily invested against it.

I'd say it's all or nothing but realistically I don't think either of Gawn or Grundy are must start picks even if nothing changes which does make it a little bit more appealing to target it. It's a very hard case to make that Gawn is underpriced and while I think the case can be made for Grundy it's not an ironclad one or anything.



I had a quick look and hitout numbers last weekend seemed to be fairly similar to numbers from last season. Obviously last season was 20% shorter game time, but you need to balance that with the lack of pressure in a pre-season game.

I think that there will be a bit of a drop off, maybe 10% or so early on, but I expect this will lessen and games will go more towards the usual congestion over the course of the season as clubs adapt. Worth considering, but I wouldn't trash your whole team out of fear of a major drop.
Check the stats on the previous page. Over the previous two seasons there was no notable difference in hitout numbers between preseason (18 games each season) and the regular season. Might go back further in a bit to confirm if those are outliers or it's legitimate.

10% is significant though, that's 14 points for Gawn and 12 for Grundy, admittedly not their only scoring source, but that would be a massive shift in the game if it eventuated.
 

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View attachment 26869

I have been considering taking a set against the rucks for a few weeks now and the scores and general play over the weekend has made my mind up.

I am in.... balls deep.

Had a great year last year (63rd overall) and I know that a finish that high 2 years in row is a real long shot so I am happy to take a risk this year.
Like it but I would make the following changes:
Out: L Duggan, T Mitchell, T Green and T Phillips
In: S Docherty, J Macrae, J Daniher (via Campbell) and J Cameron
 
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The problem with Meek is when does Darcy come back (if he only plays 1-3 games he isn't worth starting)

Treacy may replace Lobb , but given they have Hamling & Pearce back they theoretically have 2 extra talls in their defence to fit in so could send Cox or Logue (may have read he is injured) forward.

Is it a case of 'rolling" down everyone in defence.

Flynn arguably is the # 1 option , but if he is not right they probably play Briggs (D/F so doesn't help)

Fullarton has McStay who could miss anywhere between 1-4 games depending what article you read.

Hunter is contending with McKernan to partner Ryder until Marshall comes back which could be around Rd 4/5.
 
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Always difficult to extrapolate, for sure, but the hitouts have been a constant through all the rule changes and wildness, so there's that.

Not sure how the fatigue will impact but in general I'm not sure fatigue causes more stoppages, generally the talk around restricting interchange is one of the anti-congestion measures to tire players and restrict their ability to swarm and that the game opens up late in quarters when players tire.

Wet weather is a very overrated factor also for mine. It can't be more than about 10 games a season that get impacted by it nowadays with a game in Perth and QLD every week and half the Vic games in the dome. On top of that you'd need the relevant rucks to be in the rain every time for it to actually matter.

The really interesting thing with the observation if it were to hold up is that anyone who doesn't allow for it get's trapped by it, it could be a genuinely monumental advantage to be on the other side of it. Essentially you've had Gawn and Grundy significantly overpriced (and any mids it would drag with it) while those playing against it would be heavily invested against it.

I'd say it's all or nothing but realistically I don't think either of Gawn or Grundy are must start picks even if nothing changes which does make it a little bit more appealing to target it. It's a very hard case to make that Gawn is underpriced and while I think the case can be made for Grundy it's not an ironclad one or anything.





Check the stats on the previous page. Over the previous two seasons there was no notable difference in hitout numbers between preseason (18 games each season) and the regular season. Might go back further in a bit to confirm if those are outliers or it's legitimate.

10% is significant though, that's 14 points for Gawn and 12 for Grundy, admittedly not their only scoring source, but that would be a massive shift in the game if it eventuated.
Agree totally, it is really a
Always difficult to extrapolate, for sure, but the hitouts have been a constant through all the rule changes and wildness, so there's that.

Not sure how the fatigue will impact but in general I'm not sure fatigue causes more stoppages, generally the talk around restricting interchange is one of the anti-congestion measures to tire players and restrict their ability to swarm and that the game opens up late in quarters when players tire.

Wet weather is a very overrated factor also for mine. It can't be more than about 10 games a season that get impacted by it nowadays with a game in Perth and QLD every week and half the Vic games in the dome. On top of that you'd need the relevant rucks to be in the rain every time for it to actually matter.

The really interesting thing with the observation if it were to hold up is that anyone who doesn't allow for it get's trapped by it, it could be a genuinely monumental advantage to be on the other side of it. Essentially you've had Gawn and Grundy significantly overpriced (and any mids it would drag with it) while those playing against it would be heavily invested against it.

I'd say it's all or nothing but realistically I don't think either of Gawn or Grundy are must start picks even if nothing changes which does make it a little bit more appealing to target it. It's a very hard case to make that Gawn is underpriced and while I think the case can be made for Grundy it's not an ironclad one or anything.





Check the stats on the previous page. Over the previous two seasons there was no notable difference in hitout numbers between preseason (18 games each season) and the regular season. Might go back further in a bit to confirm if those are outliers or it's legitimate.

10% is significant though, that's 14 points for Gawn and 12 for Grundy, admittedly not their only scoring source, but that would be a massive shift in the game if it eventuated.
Agree totally, its an all or nothing play, noticing a shift in the paradigm of traditional/modern structure in the game and running with it when the opportunity presents. Not saying im gonna run with it, just playing around with what your starting line up may look like. Here is an example and takes out a few of the riskier rookies in other lines. Obviously players are interchangeable depending on your preference. Is the structure sustainable?

1615286375762.jpeg
 
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So running a few more numbers...

2016 - Preseason average 71.30 Actual 79.34
2017 - Preseason average 67.12 Actual 79.75
2018 - Preseason average 67.44 Actual 77.77


So all with a similar outcome that varies from 2019 and 2020 results.

2019 - Preseason average 73.44 Actual 77.13
2020 - Preseason average 75.94 Actual 73.99 (scaled up for shorter quarters)

I can't remember the 2016-2018 preseason games to know if they were shorter quarters at all but there was some crazy variances in the hitouts and DT scoring from game to game so my gut says that some of the games were shorter, if anyone can remember and confirm one way or the other it would be good as it definitely could skew data if there was a round of shorter games. Those were also some of the years with a few gimmicks, from a quick search it looks like the last touch out of bounds rule was in play for 2018 don't know about others but obviously that's going to skew things a fair bit (I'd have thought more than 10 to be honest).

This year at 62.33 for anyone who missed the previous post, given the games all seemed to go fairly long that's quite a notable drop either way although if it trended like the 2016-2018 seasons it wouldn't be a big overall difference.
 
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Listened to Peter Bell (Freo GM) on the radio driving home, he was asked about Darcy :- he is aiming for round 1 & will be very close - said no ducks & drakes, round 1 is a real chance.

That being the case, Flynn certainly is the better pick of the 2.

Bell also said they are weighing up going with Treacy or swinging Pearce fwd or playing Fyfe fwd to replace Lobb ( could be 6-10 weeks out).
 
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So running a few more numbers...

2016 - Preseason average 71.30 Actual 79.34
2017 - Preseason average 67.12 Actual 79.75
2018 - Preseason average 67.44 Actual 77.77


So all with a similar outcome that varies from 2019 and 2020 results.

2019 - Preseason average 73.44 Actual 77.13
2020 - Preseason average 75.94 Actual 73.99 (scaled up for shorter quarters)

I can't remember the 2016-2018 preseason games to know if they were shorter quarters at all but there was some crazy variances in the hitouts and DT scoring from game to game so my gut says that some of the games were shorter, if anyone can remember and confirm one way or the other it would be good as it definitely could skew data if there was a round of shorter games. Those were also some of the years with a few gimmicks, from a quick search it looks like the last touch out of bounds rule was in play for 2018 don't know about others but obviously that's going to skew things a fair bit (I'd have thought more than 10 to be honest).

This year at 62.33 for anyone who missed the previous post, given the games all seemed to go fairly long that's quite a notable drop either way although if it trended like the 2016-2018 seasons it wouldn't be a big overall difference.
I haven't seen any preseason games nor have I looked at stats. Just some thoughts.
Those early Preseason averages from the past, I presume, would be an average of the number of games each team played in a preseason, while this year, the averages are based on 1 preseason game?
Another thought is that, this year, some preseason games were very one sided, I think those games would not have as many ruck contests as the close games? Could be interesting to see if the close games had a higher average?
 
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I haven't seen any preseason games nor have I looked at stats. Just some thoughts.
Those early Preseason averages from the past, I presume, would be an average of the number of games each team played in a preseason, while this year, the averages are based on 1 preseason game?
Another thought is that, this year, some preseason games were very one sided, I think those games would not have as many ruck contests as the close games? Could be interesting to see if the close games had a higher average?
There is honestly no logic to them...

Two lowest were Tigers/Pies and Port/Crows, the closest and most onesided games of the round.

North/Hawks, Dogs/Demons and Blues/Saints, probably the next 3 most one sided games were 3 of the top 4 games.

Cats/Bombers, one of the most even was the 3rd lowest.

Lions/Suns which was basically super one-sided for a half each was the other of the top 4.

Previous seasons are all averages for all teams, it's double the sample size for the last 3 years and triple in the 2 before that. Both of them go up 2 points if you only take the middle 9 games as a sample, essentially there were more super low games than super high, I think again because some of the games were shorter in those bigger preseasons given that all the stats are down and not just hitouts in the low end outliers for the most part (couple of the low games were just low).
 
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There is honestly no logic to them...

Two lowest were Tigers/Pies and Port/Crows, the closest and most onesided games of the round.

North/Hawks, Dogs/Demons and Blues/Saints, probably the next 3 most one sided games were 3 of the top 4 games.

Cats/Bombers, one of the most even was the 3rd lowest.

Lions/Suns which was basically super one-sided for a half each was the other of the top 4.

Previous seasons are all averages for all teams, it's double the sample size for the last 3 years and triple in the 2 before that. Both of them go up 2 points if you only take the middle 9 games as a sample, essentially there were more super low games than super high, I think again because some of the games were shorter in those bigger preseasons given that all the stats are down and not just hitouts in the low end outliers for the most part (couple of the low games were just low).
Super interesting chat! Really appreciate the stats provided and debate.

Random thought but is there any correlation to the number of marks? Gut feel says there is an increase in average marks based on the openness of the games and that would in itself contribute to a reduced ruck contest tally.

Could be a long bow to draw, but I’d actually feel better if that was the case as I reckon coaches will adapt to the rules and “manning the mark” strategies will kick in. Games won’t stay that open for long so if the ruck contest tally lands somewhere between the “worryingly low” preseason and “nothing to worry about” totals of previous seasons, any points impact should be manageable. Just..
 
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Super interesting chat! Really appreciate the stats provided and debate.

Random thought but is there any correlation to the number of marks? Gut feel says there is an increase in average marks based on the openness of the games and that would in itself contribute to a reduced ruck contest tally.

Could be a long bow to draw, but I’d actually feel better if that was the case as I reckon coaches will adapt to the rules and “manning the mark” strategies will kick in. Games won’t stay that open for long so if the ruck contest tally lands somewhere between the “worryingly low” preseason and “nothing to worry about” totals of previous seasons, any points impact should be manageable. Just..
Marks during the 2020 season averages ranged from 59.1 (Crows) to 83.7 (Cats). On the weekend, marks ranged from 67 to 190 (both extremes were in the same match - Power v Crows). Most teams were 80+, multiple teams were 100+, so marks were definitely significantly higher than last season.
 
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I dare say there were a lot more uncontested marks as well. Quicker movement definitely doesn't favour the rucks from my perspective.

Makes it harder to set up the kick behind or in front and be the big pack mark option, especially if those packs get circumvented entirely.
 
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Marks during the 2020 season averages ranged from 59.1 (Crows) to 83.7 (Cats). On the weekend, marks ranged from 67 to 190 (both extremes were in the same match - Power v Crows). Most teams were 80+, multiple teams were 100+, so marks were definitely significantly higher than last season.
Amazingly speedy.. thanks!!
 
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