Position 2022: Defender Discussion

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I don't think Hewett is a win even at a 95 average.

IMO,
Players that will average 105+ : Stewart, Lloyd, Whitfield, Crisp, Rocj
Players in the 100 - 105 range: Short, Ridley, Heppell, Dawson, Hall, Dale

So let's just saying Hewett averages 95 - which is almost 10% higher than his best average season, and 22% higher than all his seasons but one, you're looking at the BARE MINIMUM, a 22 x 5 = 110 points loss for your D6.

The expected/likely loss is probably close to 200 points, if not over 200 points.

And any cash gained wouldn't be actionable, as you would've only gained like 70 - 80k.

Seems like a very, very low % play with Hewett, hard pass for me.
Removing Whitfield, and you've just projected everyone to basically score what they're priced at.

So Hewett is ~120k cheaper than the cheapest option in that list that isn't a similar value play. That's ~22 points extra in another position in your starting team over the person who takes Dale. So even if Dale is 105 compared to Hewett's 95, you're 12 points a week better off than the Dale and y compared to your Hewett and x assuming you both get what you pay for.

This is exactly what I mean when people ignore the value aspect, you've just gone 95 vs 100 as your calculation and completely excluded the 120k from consideration.

You've also gone the assumption that every pick will definitely work. How many upgraded into Ridley in round 3 to get a 92 average for the rest of the season? Even if you bought for value in round 8 you got a 95 average. How many started Daniel? How often have you seen a team that has D1-6 perfect?

The reality is that most teams will have a D6 that averages 95, most will pay a bit more than 72 for them (not significantly to be fair).

You've also eliminated that Hewett definitely could average more, I think 95 is a fair prediction but I don't think 105 is impossible. He's a much better player than most AFL fans would recognise and I wouldn't be surprised if he averaged 105, I would genuinely say I'd be more surprised if he averaged 85 than 105 if his role is as advertised and he stays fit.

I say this having not picked him to this point but that's only because he structurally doesn't fit, he's definitely the guy I target if I can find a way to get another of the Big 4 mids into my side though.

If he backs up his role, looks good, I'd definitely warm to the pick significantly, would need to be allowing a big move in my side but I'm definitely open to it.
 
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Removing Whitfield, and you've just projected everyone to basically score what they're priced at.

So Hewett is ~120k cheaper than the cheapest option in that list that isn't a similar value play. That's ~22 points extra in another position in your starting team over the person who takes Dale. So even if Dale is 105 compared to Hewett's 95, you're 12 points a week better off than the Dale and y compared to your Hewett and x assuming you both get what you pay for.

This is exactly what I mean when people ignore the value aspect, you've just gone 95 vs 100 as your calculation and completely excluded the 120k from consideration.

You've also gone the assumption that every pick will definitely work. How many upgraded into Ridley in round 3 to get a 92 average for the rest of the season? Even if you bought for value in round 8 you got a 95 average. How many started Daniel? How often have you seen a team that has D1-6 perfect?

The reality is that most teams will have a D6 that averages 95, most will pay a bit more than 72 for them (not significantly to be fair).

You've also eliminated that Hewett definitely could average more, I think 95 is a fair prediction but I don't think 105 is impossible. He's a much better player than most AFL fans would recognise and I wouldn't be surprised if he averaged 105, I would genuinely say I'd be more surprised if he averaged 85 than 105 if his role is as advertised and he stays fit.

I say this having not picked him to this point but that's only because he structurally doesn't fit, he's definitely the guy I target if I can find a way to get another of the Big 4 mids into my side though.

If he backs up his role, looks good, I'd definitely warm to the pick significantly, would need to be allowing a big move in my side but I'm definitely open to it.
Exactly, I'd probably argue Short and Ridley are more likely to approach or exceed 105 rather than stay at low 100s. It was a conservative guess, with the likely outcome being even less in favour of Hewett.

The point calculation is correct for the early part of the season, but shouldn't apply to the latter half of the season when most players already have a whole set of premiums. At that stage, it's not a matter of o***etting losses in defence (Hewett) against gains elsewhere, it would be pure losses, assuming the 120k initial difference doesn't affect team structure by round 15/16, which it shouldn't.

The initial 120k difference also doesn't equate to 22 points. Who would you upgrade from your current team that will give you that level of return? Is upgrading someone like Brayshaw to Macrae/Oliver/Steele an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a midpricer like Rowell/Lipinski/Berry to someone in the 400 - 500k range an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a rookie to a JHF/Daicos/Berry an upgrade of 22 points? In this case, actually yes, perhaps. But you should have these players anyways so this option wouldn't even be open. And on the flipside a basement price rookie is also likely to generate more cash than a premium rookie (who is intended to offer better scoring/JS ahead of cash generation). The point is - while mathematically Hewett represents value (and is potentially underpriced by 22 points), due to the scoring mechanism of supercoach, this value requires a very, very specific circumstance to be subtracted (since Hewett will be well short of making 150k, and being anywhere close to a satisfactory cashcow). E.g. if you can upgrade a Marshall to a Gawn (top 5 ruck to top 2 ruck), or a mid pricer to a premium (very difficult, you probably need closer to 250k instead), then yes I'd recognise that. Otherwise, I just can't see any practical usage of that additional 120k.

All of this is also based on the assumption that Hewett will outperform his best ever season by a fair amount to even break even.

What happens if young players like Dow/Kennedy shine earlier in the season? What happens once Walsh returns? How does Carlton sustain all of Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, Walsh, Cerra + Hewett? If they are against Brisbane with Neale, Richmond with Dusty or Gold Coast with Miller, teams with standout midfielders, do you think Hewett won't play a defensive role against the top midfielders in the comp?

Look you can bring up the tagger to dominant midfielder transition that Steele/Miller went through. But the key difference is that they are both the #1 midfielders of their respective teams, they ARE the match winners, so they are best optimized as ball-winners rather than support. Hewett will never have that role while being at Carlton when Cripps, Cerra and Walsh are around.
 
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Exactly, I'd probably argue Short and Ridley are more likely to approach or exceed 105 rather than stay at low 100s. It was a conservative guess, with the likely outcome being even less in favour of Hewett.

The point calculation is correct for the early part of the season, but shouldn't apply to the latter half of the season when most players already have a whole set of premiums. At that stage, it's not a matter of o***etting losses in defence (Hewett) against gains elsewhere, it would be pure losses, assuming the 120k initial difference doesn't affect team structure by round 15/16, which it shouldn't.

The initial 120k difference also doesn't equate to 22 points. Who would you upgrade from your current team that will give you that level of return? Is upgrading someone like Brayshaw to Macrae/Oliver/Steele an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a midpricer like Rowell/Lipinski/Berry to someone in the 400 - 500k range an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a rookie to a JHF/Daicos/Berry an upgrade of 22 points? In this case, actually yes, perhaps. But you should have these players anyways so this option wouldn't even be open. And on the flipside a basement price rookie is also likely to generate more cash than a premium rookie (who is intended to offer better scoring/JS ahead of cash generation). The point is - while mathematically Hewett represents value (and is potentially underpriced by 22 points), due to the scoring mechanism of supercoach, this value requires a very, very specific circumstance to be subtracted (since Hewett will be well short of making 150k, and being anywhere close to a satisfactory cashcow). E.g. if you can upgrade a Marshall to a Gawn (top 5 ruck to top 2 ruck), or a mid pricer to a premium (very difficult, you probably need closer to 250k instead), then yes I'd recognise that. Otherwise, I just can't see any practical usage of that additional 120k.

All of this is also based on the assumption that Hewett will outperform his best ever season by a fair amount to even break even.

What happens if young players like Dow/Kennedy shine earlier in the season? What happens once Walsh returns? How does Carlton sustain all of Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, Walsh, Cerra + Hewett? If they are against Brisbane with Neale, Richmond with Dusty or Gold Coast with Miller, teams with standout midfielders, do you think Hewett won't play a defensive role against the top midfielders in the comp?

Look you can bring up the tagger to dominant midfielder transition that Steele/Miller went through. But the key difference is that they are both the #1 midfielders of their respective teams, they ARE the match winners, so they are best optimized as ball-winners rather than support. Hewett will never have that role while being at Carlton when Cripps, Cerra and Walsh are around.
There are so many moving parts here, you've essentially reached the conclusion that you want and then re-constructed the scenario to support it.

The first one is the perfect team fallacy, we all do it but if you ever have the perfect team at round 16, congratulations, you've won 50k. No one has ever had the perfect team, they will be leaking points at multiple positions to someone else who has a different structure and that goes for everyone be they first or 50000th in rank. You need to stop thinking in terms of perfect and start thinking in terms of possible and realistic. If you manage to have D1-6 nailed then I'll be great money you haven't nailed M5-8 or F4-6 instead because you have to make sacrifices somewhere in this game. It's just the way it is. For example last year the winner had Kieren Briggs at D6 in round 23 and Tim Taranto at M8.

You've tastefully ignored the "get what you paid for" to then try and distort the numbers, sure, if every pick that can be suggested has a counter of some player you think is going to break out and increase their scoring by 25 points then no comparison is going to work. The entire point of controlling variables is so you can compare a situation. We all strive for value but the simple fact is if you pick Dunkley and he produces what he has the last two years and I pick Oliver and he produces what he has the last two years then that 120k has produced 22 points a week ignoring durability. We can all play the moving parts game but it achieves nothing. You can say Dale and X is better because you think x improves by 25 but I can then say well what if Y improves by 35, it's an utterly pointless exercise that obfuscates from that actual player being analysed.

Same goes for changing the goal posts on your comparison players. If you think Short is 10+ points underpriced, then pick him, but moving the goal posts and cherry picking a comparison player you like more is just altering the facts again and achieves nothing. The whole point is to isolate what the pick means for a team and what the cash should contribute to the side. 120k simply equals 22 points in direct value with no movement in any direction, it's pure magic number at play, altering that is just manipulation to try and make a different point. If you think D6 scoring is ~103 then Hewett at 95 is going to be a good pick more times than not. Any time you get an acceptable keeper at a 120k discount you've moved forward two steps.

The What If? game is even less fruitful. What if Cripps is injured in round 1 and Hewett becomes their #1 midfielder? Based on history it would seem that Cripps being injured is perhaps the most likely what if involving Carlton's midfield. What if you're wrong about Hewett and he's actually their #1 midfielder, he's better than the player that Cripps has been the past two years and he's definitely a better player than Kennedy or Dow, Walsh is a hybrid and Cerra is mostly outside in his work. The path to #1 inside is legitimate. Again, it's the "dream" result of the pick and not what I would project but to argue it's not a possible outcome I think would be errant.

Hewett may well tag, I think it's a waste given their list has several other guys who can do that, but it's certainly possible, it's one of the risks of the pick, as is the Cripps, Cerra and Walsh trio being there and taking opportunities. I'd argue there's no pick in the game without risk and downside factors, even if there was then injury is always possible.

The Steele/Miller thing is just a weird point from you, they weren't the #1 midfielders when they were taggers, that's the entire point, they played that role while they were asked and worked hard to move up to the #1 slot, Hewett is realistically going from the #4 spot at Sydney to the #2 spot, it's a nice jump. Jake Lloyd wasn't a good fantasy player when he was a winger, Aaron Hall wasn't a good pick as anything but a clearance mid until he became a rebounding defender. Tom Mitchell only scored 85 a game playing pretty much the same role that Hewett scored 88 in. I'm definitely not arguing Hewett as the #1 mid either, if he was their #1 mid I'd say he's a must pick. Heck the whole #1 midfielder thing is odd, we all think Dunkley is a must pick at 160k more than Hewett and he's at best their 5th best midfielder and it's a coinflip between him and Treloar at 5 and 6 and Lachie Hunter isn't exactly a bad one at 7... If the midfield is winning the ball, which is Hewett's job, then there is plenty to go around for the 4 of them including Hewett to be viable.

Totally agree that Hewett is not viable as a cash cow (or a stepping stone if people want to call it that instead) and should not be picked as one, he does not make sense. You pick him because you think he can average 95 and you think the premium threshold is in the 100-105 range. If you think he can average higher that makes the pick stronger, if you don't think he's likely to hit that then shelve the idea, it's not a good pick.

I should add that picking a D6/M8/F6 at the start of the season has genuine opportunity costs throughout the season, it pigeon holes you into specific targets and can make upgrades much more difficult, I'd probably only really recommend a Hewett pick to those who think he can go 100+ and be a genuine D4 option, then at least you can miss and still have the D6 fallback.

It's all good to not like Hewett, the expectation above his best season is a perfectly valid point, the 4th midfielder is spot on, the concerns are spot on in general. As I've said, he's not been in my side at all to date for structural reasons but it's important to not blur what a player offers with moving parts. The problem is reverse engineering and manipulating to produce a certain result. It's perfectly reasonable that the equation isn't good enough for your side, 23 points improvement is good but it's not great and it certainly wouldn't be the biggest improvement, there will almost certainly be a dozen rookies who beat that improvement, there will probably be a couple of genuine premiums (season's end) who beat that, even more so if that 23 points is the high end of your projections and you expect more like 15.

At the end of the day, I would bet good money that if Hewett averages 95 there will be multiple teams inside the top 100 that have him because that would be a good pick providing excellent value. I'd bet the same for Sicily as well and he'd be a worse pick at that outcome.
 
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I don't think Hewett is a win even at a 95 average.

IMO,
Players that will average 105+ : Stewart, Lloyd, Whitfield, Crisp, Rocj
Players in the 100 - 105 range: Short, Ridley, Heppell, Dawson, Hall, Dale

So let's just saying Hewett averages 95 - which is almost 10% higher than his best average season, and 22% higher than all his seasons but one, you're looking at the BARE MINIMUM, a 22 x 5 = 110 points loss for your D6.

The expected/likely loss is probably close to 200 points, if not over 200 points.

And any cash gained wouldn't be actionable, as you would've only gained like 70 - 80k.

Seems like a very, very low % play with Hewett, hard pass for me.
People are talking season averages and 22 games at a large number of CBA's - Is Walsh confirmed out for the season or something?
 
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I really dont see how people think Hewett wont get defensive minded roles when they've got Cripps,Walsh,Cerra and Kennedy who all play predominantly as ball winners, someone has to defend in a midfield if you want any balance whatsoever, genuinely see him as the perfect recruit to compliment their setup as they phase Curnow out of the midfield rotation, if you think he can still go 95+ doing that by all means pick him but I have severe doubts personally.
 
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People are talking season averages and 22 games at a large number of CBA's - Is Walsh confirmed out for the season or something?
I think he'll get the CBA's I'm just not convinced it will be in a role thats always conducive to good scoring output, and we arent really going to have much clarity on that when one of their prime movers isn't playing and we are watching pre season games where nobody bothers to defend anyway.
 
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Exactly, I'd probably argue Short and Ridley are more likely to approach or exceed 105 rather than stay at low 100s. It was a conservative guess, with the likely outcome being even less in favour of Hewett.

The point calculation is correct for the early part of the season, but shouldn't apply to the latter half of the season when most players already have a whole set of premiums. At that stage, it's not a matter of o***etting losses in defence (Hewett) against gains elsewhere, it would be pure losses, assuming the 120k initial difference doesn't affect team structure by round 15/16, which it shouldn't.

The initial 120k difference also doesn't equate to 22 points. Who would you upgrade from your current team that will give you that level of return? Is upgrading someone like Brayshaw to Macrae/Oliver/Steele an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a midpricer like Rowell/Lipinski/Berry to someone in the 400 - 500k range an increase of 22 points? Is upgrading a rookie to a JHF/Daicos/Berry an upgrade of 22 points? In this case, actually yes, perhaps. But you should have these players anyways so this option wouldn't even be open. And on the flipside a basement price rookie is also likely to generate more cash than a premium rookie (who is intended to offer better scoring/JS ahead of cash generation). The point is - while mathematically Hewett represents value (and is potentially underpriced by 22 points), due to the scoring mechanism of supercoach, this value requires a very, very specific circumstance to be subtracted (since Hewett will be well short of making 150k, and being anywhere close to a satisfactory cashcow). E.g. if you can upgrade a Marshall to a Gawn (top 5 ruck to top 2 ruck), or a mid pricer to a premium (very difficult, you probably need closer to 250k instead), then yes I'd recognise that. Otherwise, I just can't see any practical usage of that additional 120k.

There are so many moving parts here, you've essentially reached the conclusion that you want and then re-constructed the scenario to support it.

The first one is the perfect team fallacy, we all do it but if you ever have the perfect team at round 16, congratulations, you've won 50k. No one has ever had the perfect team, they will be leaking points at multiple positions to someone else who has a different structure and that goes for everyone be they first or 50000th in rank. You need to stop thinking in terms of perfect and start thinking in terms of possible and realistic. If you manage to have D1-6 nailed then I'll be great money you haven't nailed M5-8 or F4-6 instead because you have to make sacrifices somewhere in this game. It's just the way it is. For example last year the winner had Kieren Briggs at D6 in round 23 and Tim Taranto at M8.

You've tastefully ignored the "get what you paid for" to then try and distort the numbers, sure, if every pick that can be suggested has a counter of some player you think is going to break out and increase their scoring by 25 points then no comparison is going to work. The entire point of controlling variables is so you can compare a situation. We all strive for value but the simple fact is if you pick Dunkley and he produces what he has the last two years and I pick Oliver and he produces what he has the last two years then that 120k has produced 22 points a week ignoring durability. We can all play the moving parts game but it achieves nothing. You can say Dale and X is better because you think x improves by 25 but I can then say well what if Y improves by 35, it's an utterly pointless exercise that obfuscates from that actual player being analysed.

Same goes for changing the goal posts on your comparison players. If you think Short is 10+ points underpriced, then pick him, but moving the goal posts and cherry picking a comparison player you like more is just altering the facts again and achieves nothing. The whole point is to isolate what the pick means for a team and what the cash should contribute to the side. 120k simply equals 22 points in direct value with no movement in any direction, it's pure magic number at play, altering that is just manipulation to try and make a different point. If you think D6 scoring is ~103 then Hewett at 95 is going to be a good pick more times than not. Any time you get an acceptable keeper at a 120k discount you've moved forward two steps.
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It's important to consider that some people contruct their team and do player analysis differently.

Some take a very financial approach optimising value with overall scoring...some take a more visionary approach where they aim to build the best team at some point, (especially important for leagues) where if a player isn't doing cash gen thing and they're not in the top X of their line then they're no use.

The latter biases against picks like Hewitt that deliver genuine value... personally I subscribe to the latter vision approach in a post 24 trade environment, 30 to 35 trades is enough to do it... The latter approach, pretty much turfs the points per $ spent based on last year's scoring out the window. It focuses almost exclusively on expected points per $ spent within the limits of the vision...which is why people subscribing to this approach turf the 22 points thing out the window quickly.

That said, I tend to run one of these Hewitt type picks for structural reasons, rather than taking extra cash into round 1...which in theory boosts points on field at the expense of cash gen of bench rookie, in the early rounds. I also know my penchant for flipping players during byes to make an optimal team. These picks, if done properly do work, you just can't have too many of them, because if good onfield rookies turn up you get eaten by a more pure GnR approach.

I didn't write 10k character with thumbs oh wait...I quoted Wogitalia! Quotes shortened!
 
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It's important to consider that some people contruct their team and do player analysis differently.

Some take a very financial approach optimising value with overall scoring...some take a more visionary approach where they aim to build the best team at some point, (especially important for leagues) where if a player isn't doing cash gen thing and they're not in the top X of their line then they're no use.

The latter biases against picks like Hewitt that deliver genuine value... personally I subscribe to the latter vision approach in a post 24 trade environment, 30 to 35 trades is enough to do it... The latter approach, pretty much turfs the points per $ spent based on last year's scoring out the window. It focuses almost exclusively on expected points per $ spent within the limits of the vision...which is why people subscribing to this approach turf the 22 points thing out the window quickly.

That said, I tend to run one of these Hewitt type picks for structural reasons, rather than taking extra cash into round 1...which in theory boosts points on field at the expense of cash gen of bench rookie, in the early rounds. I also know my penchant for flipping players during byes to make an optimal team. These picks, if done properly do work, you just can't have too many of them, because if good onfield rookies turn up you get eaten by a more pure GnR approach.

I didn't write 10k character with thumbs oh wait...I quoted Wogitalia! Quotes shortened!
Im pretty content that with 35 trades you dont have to be looking for value picks at the start of the season but it could easily burn me if rookies dont do as well as I anticipate and I have to settle for sub par selections as the season goes, always going to be difference in how people play the game and I have always encouraged people to back their own thought processes and not let other people cloud their judgements, hindsight will show what method was best.
 
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There are so many moving parts here, you've essentially reached the conclusion that you want and then re-constructed the scenario to support it.

The first one is the perfect team fallacy, we all do it but if you ever have the perfect team at round 16, congratulations, you've won 50k. No one has ever had the perfect team, they will be leaking points at multiple positions to someone else who has a different structure and that goes for everyone be they first or 50000th in rank. You need to stop thinking in terms of perfect and start thinking in terms of possible and realistic. If you manage to have D1-6 nailed then I'll be great money you haven't nailed M5-8 or F4-6 instead because you have to make sacrifices somewhere in this game. It's just the way it is. For example last year the winner had Kieren Briggs at D6 in round 23 and Tim Taranto at M8.

You've tastefully ignored the "get what you paid for" to then try and distort the numbers, sure, if every pick that can be suggested has a counter of some player you think is going to break out and increase their scoring by 25 points then no comparison is going to work. The entire point of controlling variables is so you can compare a situation. We all strive for value but the simple fact is if you pick Dunkley and he produces what he has the last two years and I pick Oliver and he produces what he has the last two years then that 120k has produced 22 points a week ignoring durability. We can all play the moving parts game but it achieves nothing. You can say Dale and X is better because you think x improves by 25 but I can then say well what if Y improves by 35, it's an utterly pointless exercise that obfuscates from that actual player being analysed.

Same goes for changing the goal posts on your comparison players. If you think Short is 10+ points underpriced, then pick him, but moving the goal posts and cherry picking a comparison player you like more is just altering the facts again and achieves nothing. The whole point is to isolate what the pick means for a team and what the cash should contribute to the side. 120k simply equals 22 points in direct value with no movement in any direction, it's pure magic number at play, altering that is just manipulation to try and make a different point. If you think D6 scoring is ~103 then Hewett at 95 is going to be a good pick more times than not. Any time you get an acceptable keeper at a 120k discount you've moved forward two steps.

The What If? game is even less fruitful. What if Cripps is injured in round 1 and Hewett becomes their #1 midfielder? Based on history it would seem that Cripps being injured is perhaps the most likely what if involving Carlton's midfield. What if you're wrong about Hewett and he's actually their #1 midfielder, he's better than the player that Cripps has been the past two years and he's definitely a better player than Kennedy or Dow, Walsh is a hybrid and Cerra is mostly outside in his work. The path to #1 inside is legitimate. Again, it's the "dream" result of the pick and not what I would project but to argue it's not a possible outcome I think would be errant.

Hewett may well tag, I think it's a waste given their list has several other guys who can do that, but it's certainly possible, it's one of the risks of the pick, as is the Cripps, Cerra and Walsh trio being there and taking opportunities. I'd argue there's no pick in the game without risk and downside factors, even if there was then injury is always possible.

The Steele/Miller thing is just a weird point from you, they weren't the #1 midfielders when they were taggers, that's the entire point, they played that role while they were asked and worked hard to move up to the #1 slot, Hewett is realistically going from the #4 spot at Sydney to the #2 spot, it's a nice jump. Jake Lloyd wasn't a good fantasy player when he was a winger, Aaron Hall wasn't a good pick as anything but a clearance mid until he became a rebounding defender. Tom Mitchell only scored 85 a game playing pretty much the same role that Hewett scored 88 in. I'm definitely not arguing Hewett as the #1 mid either, if he was their #1 mid I'd say he's a must pick. Heck the whole #1 midfielder thing is odd, we all think Dunkley is a must pick at 160k more than Hewett and he's at best their 5th best midfielder and it's a coinflip between him and Treloar at 5 and 6 and Lachie Hunter isn't exactly a bad one at 7... If the midfield is winning the ball, which is Hewett's job, then there is plenty to go around for the 4 of them including Hewett to be viable.

Totally agree that Hewett is not viable as a cash cow (or a stepping stone if people want to call it that instead) and should not be picked as one, he does not make sense. You pick him because you think he can average 95 and you think the premium threshold is in the 100-105 range. If you think he can average higher that makes the pick stronger, if you don't think he's likely to hit that then shelve the idea, it's not a good pick.

I should add that picking a D6/M8/F6 at the start of the season has genuine opportunity costs throughout the season, it pigeon holes you into specific targets and can make upgrades much more difficult, I'd probably only really recommend a Hewett pick to those who think he can go 100+ and be a genuine D4 option, then at least you can miss and still have the D6 fallback.

It's all good to not like Hewett, the expectation above his best season is a perfectly valid point, the 4th midfielder is spot on, the concerns are spot on in general. As I've said, he's not been in my side at all to date for structural reasons but it's important to not blur what a player offers with moving parts. The problem is reverse engineering and manipulating to produce a certain result. It's perfectly reasonable that the equation isn't good enough for your side, 23 points improvement is good but it's not great and it certainly wouldn't be the biggest improvement, there will almost certainly be a dozen rookies who beat that improvement, there will probably be a couple of genuine premiums (season's end) who beat that, even more so if that 23 points is the high end of your projections and you expect more like 15.

At the end of the day, I would bet good money that if Hewett averages 95 there will be multiple teams inside the top 100 that have him because that would be a good pick providing excellent value. I'd bet the same for Sicily as well and he'd be a worse pick at that outcome.
As always Wogi, a very well articulated and logically thought out response and argument, I would've hated to come up against you in a debating team.

I would however like to put up a juxtaposition to your point about Hewett not being a stepping stone because he's in my team for exactly that purpose, as is Rioli, Coleman, Curnow/McGovern, Berry and Witts albeit they're all cheaper.

I think people become myopic about where a player fits in their team and build their structures too rigidly. The Hewett argument is a perfect case in point, I agree that at 400k he really has to be a keeper in defence and that a 95 ave would probably see him as a D6 (although we would all like a better one) and a trade of him to get a 105 player on that line is probably not viable for just a 10pt gain.

In my team, I've deliberately chosen only 1 of the big 4 in my mids and I'm aiming to fill M2-M4 with those ubers that I'm missing, I'm not necessarily aiming to bring them in at discounted prices although that'd be handy. It's expensive both in trades and $ to take on this strategy (I'll probably balls it up anyway) and as everyone has found bloody hard to do, it's why we all tend to load up on the big guys in our starting teams. I'm going to need vehicles in my team to make this work and stepping stones are those vehicles, mainly because of their embedded value, but also because of their cash generation, job security and points scoring over rookies.

Getting back to Hewett, I'm placing him in defence at a price of 73 and think he'll go at 95 which should generate around 80k-100k, if I pair him with a 280k maxxed out rookie then I get mid uber premo scoring at 125+ for just 2 trades. That's a return of 52+ pts on my initial purchase. Yes, I'll still have a rookie in defence, but that'll be a high quality rookie that I'll move from the mids. As I said earlier, I'll be doing exactly the same with Rioli, Coleman etc. in fact my 1st 4 upgrades wont be eliminating any rookies from my field but I'll have a completed midfield by round 10 with all the big dogs in it and possibly Neale at M8.
 
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The X-Factor for me with Hewett is the possibility that when Walsh comes back, if it looks like Hewett’s role will change to the negative, it could be ideally timed with a Pendles, Merrett, etc DPP switch in round 7. Could be a fun bail-out option if Hewett has gone at 100 but looks like topping out.
 
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I don't think Hewett is a win even at a 95 average.

IMO,
Players that will average 105+ : Stewart, Lloyd, Whitfield, Crisp, Rocj
Players in the 100 - 105 range: Short, Ridley, Heppell, Dawson, Hall, Dale

So let's just saying Hewett averages 95 - which is almost 10% higher than his best average season, and 22% higher than all his seasons but one, you're looking at the BARE MINIMUM, a 22 x 5 = 110 points loss for your D6.

The expected/likely loss is probably close to 200 points, if not over 200 points.

And any cash gained wouldn't be actionable, as you would've only gained like 70 - 80k.

Seems like a very, very low % play with Hewett, hard pass for me.
Aaaaannnnnnddddddd post rd 6 dpp additions... :)
 
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The X-Factor for me with Hewett is the possibility that when Walsh comes back, if it looks like Hewett’s role will change to the negative, it could be ideally timed with a Pendles, Merrett, etc DPP switch in round 7. Could be a fun bail-out option if Hewett has gone at 100 but looks like topping out.
Really dont want to be doing trades like that whilst everyone else is upgrading, think if you pick Hewett you are in for the long haul.
 
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I think Hewett is a good AF pick if you look at the first month of fixtures and go.....yeah i reckon he doesn't tag anyone and he can push 95-100 for a month while Walsh is definitely out. He then comes your flip for a fallen premo play - eg maybe Crisp or another premo had a shocker of a start/got tagged early etc.. has dropped 60-80k ahead of the regular upgrade season.

Now with 35 trades in SC you can almost afford to make one of these moves in round 5 on a 'hot start' player. To me there is some logic to looking for 1 or 2 of these "AFL Fantasy' moves in SC an a year with unprecedented number of trades

Not a high percentage but i have been looking to search for this type of move this year but I won't force it for the sake of it either. Is Hewett that guy though? not for me but i if someone thinkss he is that guy I could see it working if they jump off at the right time (eg not in the rookie upgrade season)
 
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I think Hewett is a good AF pick if you look at the first month of fixtures and go.....yeah i reckon he doesn't tag anyone and he can push 95-100 for a month while Walsh is definitely out. He then comes your flip for a fallen premo play - eg maybe Crisp or another premo had a shocker of a start/got tagged early etc.. has dropped 60-80k ahead of the regular upgrade season.

Now with 35 trades in SC you can almost afford to make one of these moves in round 5 on a 'hot start' player. To me there is some logic to looking for 1 or 2 of these "AFL Fantasy' moves in SC an a year with unprecedented number of trades

Not a high percentage but i have been looking to search for this type of move this year but I won't force it for the sake of it either. Is Hewett that guy though? not for me but i if someone thinkss he is that guy I could see it working if they jump off at the right time (eg not in the rookie upgrade season)
I can see the merit behind it but Im just not a fan of flipping players in limited trade formats, all thats going to happen is you fall behind the top echelon of coaches in upgrades and it just about kisses your season goodbye before its even started.
 
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I can see the merit behind it but Im just not a fan of flipping players in limited trade formats, all thats going to happen is you fall behind the top echelon of coaches in upgrades and it just about kisses your season goodbye before its even started.
Agree hence why i only view it is an option in round 5 as an early 'upgrade' as such
 
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Loving the high quality debate re: Hewett! As someone who has had him in and out of my various iterations, I'd say a lot of the benefit and upside will end up being subjective - one reason I find X v Y scenarios so hard is they are rarely that simple.. especially if they are different price points. There is no one at Hewett's price/scoring profile (maybe Sicily?) so then it almost becomes the domino effect of a pick. Coleman to Hewett for example could be great, but could that money have been invested elsewhere. Similarly if you went Ridley to Hewett, what can you do with those extra funds (note: they were just two random names).

My main 2 cents would be.. don't try to change structures to fit him in. If you think he's a good pick, he should be in.. but I'd advise against thinking "if I swap X to Hewett, I can swap Y to Z". Back in the premiums you want alongside the rookies you need, but value picks should be a distant third in priorities for mine.
 
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Agree hence why i only view it is an option in round 5 as an early 'upgrade' as such
Being a trade down on the rest of the competition early in the season can also hurt as the season progresses even though weve got more than ever before, just personally something I'm not a fan of doing.
 
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Being a trade down on the rest of the competition early in the season can also hurt as the season progresses even though weve got more than ever before, just personally something I'm not a fan of doing.
If you're picking Hewett at $400k it's as a keeper. If he's not a top 8 defender then he shouldn't be picked.
 

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If you're picking Hewett at $400k it's as a keeper. If he's not a top 8 defender then he shouldn't be picked.
I agree with the first part but not the second part. There will be very few teams that end up with 6/8 of the top defenders so I would say if Hewett can average at least 95 and likely be a top 15 defender then that's a win.
 
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I agree with the first part but not the second part. There will be very few teams that end up with 6/8 of the top defenders so I would say if Hewett can average at least 95 and likely be a top 15 defender then that's a win.
100% this and wogitalias's posts above. Its not just the total average thats important - it's the average that on field spot has over the entire year.

Yes - we have extra trades this year. However there is a reason (and its not because the HS wants to make it easier).

Covid will be extremely prevalent this year and cause a lot of forced outages (1 week at best, who knows at worst). Thats why we have these extra trades. It's not to be making the 'perfect team' - I expect we will be struggling most weeks to put 18/22 scoring players on the park. All these extra trades and trade boosts will be used to maximise our playing players - not forming a superteam!
 
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