Position 2022: Defender Discussion

[wogitalia]

Why would you think Soldo wouldn't play?
Played right up until he got injured inc GF.

He's clearly behind Nank, who is captain after all.

So then it comes down to whether they think the forward line becomes too tall with Soldo in it. I'd say it's basically Soldo vs Balta for a spot unless they go aggressively tall. Balta and JRoo are good at ground level which certainly helps the case to go tall. Nank is considerably better as a solo ruck though, so that's a negative.

Tigers team sheet has a lot of questions, perks of being a team with depth.

 

[sethlad]

He's clearly behind Nank, who is captain after all.

So then it comes down to whether they think the forward line becomes too tall with Soldo in it. I'd say it's basically Soldo vs Balta for a spot unless they go aggressively tall. Balta and JRoo are good at ground level which certainly helps the case to go tall. Nank is considerably better as a solo ruck though, so that's a negative.
Tigers team sheet has a lot of questions, perks of being a team with depth.

Easy solution is Balta plays back,not sure how much youve seen of Soldo if you think Nank is a better ruckman. Love Nank but he's there to bash & crash,Soldo is a very promising ruckman who's only played a few years.
I wouldn't choose Balta in SC but not much would shock me with him this year

 

[toxic]

Easy solution is Balta plays back,not sure how much youve seen of Soldo if you think Nank is a better ruckman. Love Nank but he's there to bash & crash,Soldo is a very promising ruckman who's only played a few years.
I wouldn't choose Balta in SC but not much would shock me with him this year

Where else can CAPTAIN Nank play?

 

[sethlad]

Where else can CAPTAIN Nank play?

The point is Nank plays a tough brand & has suffered the consequences over last 2 years.
He will need support & that support is Soldo after Chol & CCJ were moved on.
Balta is versatile but he's no permanent ruckman.

 

[freowho]

He needs to be a keeper at that price. There's no alternative.

I hate the term stepping stone because it implies that a failed pick is actually progressing. If you're making a pick that makes less cash AND contributes less points, that's not a good pick.

If Sicily isn't a keeper then he's cost you cash, trades and points.

Sicily works against a rookie if he becomes a keeper and you save those trades.

To be fair, I think 95+ would be a keeper number for him if he plays 22, you're picking your starting D6 and limiting upgrade targets but you've gained two trades so that's a fair payoff. Unless I'm wildly wrong on where I think defender premium scoring will be and it's much higher.

The problem is if he goes 90 and isn't a premium.

You've spent effectively 82 points to get 90 (he's priced at 82, not 73 btw). A really poor rookie is going to out produce that, so if you start a 123k rookie averaging 40, you're already well ahead on cash generation AND on field points because you still get the other ~60 points to spend somewhere else in your team.

Everyone sees 90 points and goes "that's great", but 70 from a 150k rookie is better than 90 from a 450k pick assuming that you've got somewhere to spend that 300k. Now that 450k pick suddenly becomes a lot better if you save two trades from it as a 450k pick producing 95 is better than a 545k pick producing 100 because in that scenario, you're the one with the extra 17 points somewhere else.

Yes there is some diminishing returns on spending cash elsewhere, Marshall to Gawn might only produce 10 of the 22 point gap but the two trades again factors in on that comparison and is why we target those "no value" premium picks with the value being the trades saved and it's also why when those picks fail they end your season so rapidly!

Why is he priced at 82?

 

[toxic]

The point is Nank plays a tough brand & has suffered the consequences over last 2 years.
He will need support & that support is Soldo after Chol & CCJ were moved on.
Balta is versatile but he's no permanent ruckman.

Support is support

Not a true ruck, it's mobile support and I'm not sure Soldo fits that mandate

If nank needs a game off Soldo is a great option to replace him

 

[sethlad]

Support is support

Not a true ruck, it's mobile support and I'm not sure Soldo fits that mandate
If nank needs a game off Soldo is a great option to replace him

Well one of us will be right & one won't,luckily we don't have long to wait

 

[wogitalia]

Easy solution is Balta plays back,not sure how much youve seen of Soldo if you think Nank is a better ruckman. Love Nank but he's there to bash & crash,Soldo is a very promising ruckman who's only played a few years.
I wouldn't choose Balta in SC but not much would shock me with him this year

Nank is a vastly superior ruckman overall, Soldo might be better at the hitout part of it but his ground level support is lacking while Nank is elite in that area.

Easy solution if you hadn't just added Tarrant to play that role and drafted Gibcus as depth. Balta as the 3rd tall/2nd ruck makes a lot of sense. Any other role seems like an injury adjustment.

Soldo as the depth player keeping pressure on Nank and giving him a couple of games rest, coming in for matchups where he fits better also makes sense.

Hardwick does a lot of left field things though, to his credit a lot of them work, so trying to predict what he'll do is always an interesting task!

Why is he priced at 82?

Because I was talking Sicily as I read 3/4 of the original post that was all about Sicily and didn't notice that the last line pivoted to Hewett

Point still stands, just adjust the numbers

 

[OnTopBar]

He needs to be a keeper at that price. There's no alternative.

I hate the term stepping stone because it implies that a failed pick is actually progressing. If you're making a pick that makes less cash AND contributes less points, that's not a good pick.

If Sicily isn't a keeper then he's cost you cash, trades and points.

Sicily works against a rookie if he becomes a keeper and you save those trades.

To be fair, I think 95+ would be a keeper number for him if he plays 22, you're picking your starting D6 and limiting upgrade targets but you've gained two trades so that's a fair payoff. Unless I'm wildly wrong on where I think defender premium scoring will be and it's much higher.

The problem is if he goes 90 and isn't a premium.

You've spent effectively 82 points to get 90 (he's priced at 82, not 73 btw). A really poor rookie is going to out produce that, so if you start a 123k rookie averaging 40, you're already well ahead on cash generation AND on field points because you still get the other ~60 points to spend somewhere else in your team.

Everyone sees 90 points and goes "that's great", but 70 from a 150k rookie is better than 90 from a 450k pick assuming that you've got somewhere to spend that 300k. Now that 450k pick suddenly becomes a lot better if you save two trades from it as a 450k pick producing 95 is better than a 545k pick producing 100 because in that scenario, you're the one with the extra 17 points somewhere else.

Yes there is some diminishing returns on spending cash elsewhere, Marshall to Gawn might only produce 10 of the 22 point gap but the two trades again factors in on that comparison and is why we target those "no value" premium picks with the value being the trades saved and it's also why when those picks fail they end your season so rapidly!

I know you thought we were talking Sicily, but you've said that the point still stands regarding Hewett. Surely the 10 point difference between Hewett and Sicily makes Hewett an option as a stepping stone if he is picked for that exact reason. We have to have alternatives to rookies and a player that gets to 500k, in my mind, is a great option to get to one of the uber mids very quickly with bugger all trades.

For me Hewett is the worst of my stepping stone options but he could well have a spike game and generate cash quickly, of course the opposite could well happen too where he's got the defensive mid role, scores a 60 and completely wrecks the cash gen.

 

[OnTopBar]

He's clearly behind Nank, who is captain after all.

So then it comes down to whether they think the forward line becomes too tall with Soldo in it. I'd say it's basically Soldo vs Balta for a spot unless they go aggressively tall. Balta and JRoo are good at ground level which certainly helps the case to go tall. Nank is considerably better as a solo ruck though, so that's a negative.

Tigers team sheet has a lot of questions, perks of being a team with depth.

Easy solution is Balta plays back,not sure how much youve seen of Soldo if you think Nank is a better ruckman. Love Nank but he's there to bash & crash,Soldo is a very promising ruckman who's only played a few years.
I wouldn't choose Balta in SC but not much would shock me with him this year

Where else can CAPTAIN Nank play?

The point is Nank plays a tough brand & has suffered the consequences over last 2 years.
He will need support & that support is Soldo after Chol & CCJ were moved on.
Balta is versatile but he's no permanent ruckman.

Support is support

Not a true ruck, it's mobile support and I'm not sure Soldo fits that mandate

If nank needs a game off Soldo is a great option to replace him

Well one of us will be right & one won't,luckily we don't have long to wait

Nank is a vastly superior ruckman overall, Soldo might be better at the hitout part of it but his ground level support is lacking while Nank is elite in that area.

Easy solution if you hadn't just added Tarrant to play that role and drafted Gibcus as depth. Balta as the 3rd tall/2nd ruck makes a lot of sense. Any other role seems like an injury adjustment.

Soldo as the depth player keeping pressure on Nank and giving him a couple of games rest, coming in for matchups where he fits better also makes sense.

Hardwick does a lot of left field things though, to his credit a lot of them work, so trying to predict what he'll do is always an interesting task!



Because I was talking Sicily as I read 3/4 of the original post that was all about Sicily and didn't notice that the last line pivoted to Hewett

Point still stands, just adjust the numbers

Simplest way to look at the whole ruck/Balta situation at the Tigers is to watch the game against the Hawks in the AAMI series. It was obvious that they could all work together and getting Balta into a position where he has the most impact is vital as well as giving Soldo and Nank the same opportunity ie: be more impactful. It was also obvious that Balta/Soldo took away the intercept marking advantage and gave Lynch and JR8 a lot more opportunities 1 on 1. Baltas work around stoppages was akin to having an extra midfielder.

The coaches and players have talked up Balta playing forward/ruck the whole preseason and I cant see any reason why they'd deviate from that process.

BTW I wont be picking Balta.

 

[Dustman]

Easy solution is Balta plays back,not sure how much youve seen of Soldo if you think Nank is a better ruckman. Love Nank but he's there to bash & crash,Soldo is a very promising ruckman who's only played a few years.
I wouldn't choose Balta in SC but not much would shock me with him this year

If Grimes misses R1, Balta could play back,but he was recruited as a forward. I understand that isn’t set in stone,he has played back out of both necessity,and learning the game.
With Riewoldt only having 1 or 2 years left,I think they’re grooming Balta to be a permanent forward, since he has played the pre season there and once Jack goes,Lynch will be the FF,and Balta with his agility could play CHF.
That’s my crackpot theory anyway,and being a unique year in SuperCoach,he will be in my team.I’m ready for the rollercoaster .
Has a good ceiling,just needs more consistency.

 

[toxic]

B

Simplest way to look at the whole ruck/Balta situation at the Tigers is to watch the game against the Hawks in the AAMI series. It was obvious that they could all work together and getting Balta into a position where he has the most impact is vital as well as giving Soldo and Nank the same opportunity ie: be more impactful. It was also obvious that Balta/Soldo took away the intercept marking advantage and gave Lynch and JR8 a lot more opportunities 1 on 1. Baltas work around stoppages was akin to having an extra midfielder.

The coaches and players have talked up Balta playing forward/ruck the whole preseason and I cant see any reason why they'd deviate from that process.

BTW I wont be picking Balta.

Beating up on the Hawks in a preseason game is not exactly concrete direction

In fact it's just the opposite

 

[NT.Thunder]

He needs to be a keeper at that price. There's no alternative.

I hate the term stepping stone because it implies that a failed pick is actually progressing. If you're making a pick that makes less cash AND contributes less points, that's not a good pick.

If Sicily isn't a keeper then he's cost you cash, trades and points.

Sicily works against a rookie if he becomes a keeper and you save those trades.

To be fair, I think 95+ would be a keeper number for him if he plays 22, you're picking your starting D6 and limiting upgrade targets but you've gained two trades so that's a fair payoff. Unless I'm wildly wrong on where I think defender premium scoring will be and it's much higher.

The problem is if he goes 90 and isn't a premium.

You've spent effectively 82 points to get 90 (he's priced at 82, not 73 btw). A really poor rookie is going to out produce that, so if you start a 123k rookie averaging 40, you're already well ahead on cash generation AND on field points because you still get the other ~60 points to spend somewhere else in your team.

Everyone sees 90 points and goes "that's great", but 70 from a 150k rookie is better than 90 from a 450k pick assuming that you've got somewhere to spend that 300k. Now that 450k pick suddenly becomes a lot better if you save two trades from it as a 450k pick producing 95 is better than a 545k pick producing 100 because in that scenario, you're the one with the extra 17 points somewhere else.

Yes there is some diminishing returns on spending cash elsewhere, Marshall to Gawn might only produce 10 of the 22 point gap but the two trades again factors in on that comparison and is why we target those "no value" premium picks with the value being the trades saved and it's also why when those picks fail they end your season so rapidly!

So I get the perfect world scenario, but for me, SC rarely produces perfect world scenarios.

Everyone says you get an extra 60 points elsewhere in your team, and yes you can, but only if it's invested in the right areas and I'd suggest that again that's not as easy as it sounds.

There's so many variables IMO that pan out week in week out that do provide alternative options like we saw with Taranto last year.

The issue this season is finding a 70 average from a $150k rookie (DEF) - and please provide further details on said rookie

 

[OnTopBar]

B
Beating up on the Hawks in a preseason game is not exactly concrete direction

In fact it's just the opposite

Dont agree, PS is the best time to give it a crack. Doesn't really matter as these things are quite dynamic anyway.

 

[Toothless Tigers]

Simplest way to look at the whole ruck/Balta situation at the Tigers is to watch the game against the Hawks in the AAMI series. It was obvious that they could all work together and getting Balta into a position where he has the most impact is vital as well as giving Soldo and Nank the same opportunity ie: be more impactful. It was also obvious that Balta/Soldo took away the intercept marking advantage and gave Lynch and JR8 a lot more opportunities 1 on 1. Baltas work around stoppages was akin to having an extra midfielder.

The coaches and players have talked up Balta playing forward/ruck the whole preseason and I cant see any reason why they'd deviate from that process.

BTW I wont be picking Balta.

Balta has been earmarked as a forward but that will depend on variables like weather and who is available to play,

 

[Shaunpro1]

Soldo is an absolute certainty to play for the Tigers IMHO, not sure why thats even being questioned.

 

[sethlad]

Soldo is an absolute certainty to play for the Tigers IMHO, not sure why thats even being questioned.

Couldn't agree more,I would be stunned if he's not there for majority of season

 

[wogitalia]

So I get the perfect world scenario, but for me, SC rarely produces perfect world scenarios.

Everyone says you get an extra 60 points elsewhere in your team, and yes you can, but only if it's invested in the right areas and I'd suggest that again that's not as easy as it sounds.

There's so many variables IMO that pan out week in week out that do provide alternative options like we saw with Taranto last year.

The issue this season is finding a 70 average from a $150k rookie (DEF) - and please provide further details on said rookie

Taranto was a borderline keeper though, I think people really miss how much the value aspect does shift that line. Averaged 102 until the move forward, at which point you'd be looping him with Bramble anyway and have taken Bramble on two of the putrid scores for an extra 80 odd points, which puts his average back the 102 anyway for the full season. So effective average was 102 for a switched on coach, worst case is 97 average for absentee ownership or a luxury trade come the last few rounds. Priced where he was that's about 113 worth of value in the team which is absolutely keeper level.

The issue with the above is it really only applies to a couple of players, you can only be missing so much of the premium scoring given the finite on-field spots but most winning sides I can think of will have had multiple value picks in them, be they trade targets or starting picks.

Agree entirely that the skill of spending the money is not easy and that the returns can definitely be diminishing. This year though I think there's an obvious spend on the premium rookies.

I genuinely think that Hewett at 90 and Sicily at 95 would be, at worst, luxury upgrades but realistically that's keeper territory unless the back landscape shifts significantly. That's 5/10 points a week on a Short as a starting pick but you should be generating 25 (Hewett) points a week elsewhere with the cash, and this year I dare say it's going into premium rookies so you can actually generate some cash!

Basically, those guys need to be picked as keepers barring there genuinely being no rookies (seems possible for the first time ever!) but what you deem a keeper should also be adjusted for them.

If I find said defender I'm keeping him to myself. I can't even find 2 150k defenders I think will play

 

[Herbie66]

**** it , no use thinking about it and not doing it

Short , Whitfield * , Sicily , Blakey , Chapman + any 3 of the 6 hopefully named

 

[Herbie66]

J Crisp with Howe & Moore: 91.71 from 21 (5/21 below 80, 13/21 below 100, 2/21 120+)
2019: 88.58 from 12 (4/12 below 80, 9/12 below 100, 1/12 120+)
2020: 99.75 from 4 (1/4 below 80)
2021: 92.8 from 5 (4/5 below 100, 1/5 120+)

J Crisp & no Howe: 103.63 from 30 (3/30 below 80, 14/30 below 100, 7/30 120+)
2019: 106.67 from 3 (2/3 below 100, 1/3 120+)
2020: 99.08 from 13 (2/13 below 80, 8/13 below 100, 3/13 120+)
2021: 107.21 from 14 (1/14 below 80, 4/14 below 100, 3/14 120+)

J Crisp & no Moore: 99.41 from 17 (3/17 below 80, 10/17 below 100, 3/17 120+)
2019: 81.86 from 7 (3/7 below 80, 7/7 below 100)
2020: 109 from 1
2021: 112 from 9 (3/9 below 100, 3/9 120+)

Thought more would have commented on this.