Position 2023: Midfield Discussion

[donnybuang]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622186800847650816

View: https://twitter.com/AverageSCCoach/status/1622186800847650816

Mitchell is interesting. In 2021and 2020 he avgd 11 and 10 CP per game and still had premium SC scores.

 

[donnybuang]

I'm very bullish on all 3 of the GWS mids that you listed, Kingsley was the midfield/stoppage coach at Richmond and I would be gobsmacked if doesn't play those 3 as the 1st midfield rotation.

I get your point about being hesitant in loading up on the forwards, but I think comparing last year to this year carries assumptions that possibly aren't relevant.

I assume that your 5 starting keepers last year included Cogs and Brodie, maybe F4 & F5? Those 2 cost a combined 477k and delivered an average of 203 between them. My guess is that those who started them were hopeful that they would be good stepping stones, the fact that they proved to be keepers was a huge bonus, both in pts for their positions, the money saved and then spent on a better starting side combined with the added value of at least 4 trades saved in upgrading them. A very small price to pay for a lack of flexibility, hell hindsight says that Brodie should have been flicked for Parker at his bye who averaged 10 PPG more for the rest of the season (just an example).

As you highlighted, all of the 4 mentioned for this year have durability issues (as well as say Fyfe & McLean) I would think that the chances of 1 of those 6 going down in the season is extremely high, I can see a revolving door scenario being a real possibility. What I don't see however is Fyfe and McLean becoming keepers, there is a world where it could happen but the chances of both happening are extremely thin, obviously a huge win should it eventuate.

Cogs, Rozee and Taranto each share the rnd 15 bye and one of them could be sideways traded to someone who has gained DPP. So I think that the flexibility issue could be a bit overplayed, if we do end up that way then it's because 2 x cheapies became keepers and I'll take that everyday.

If Cog, Butters, Taranto and Rozee live up to their potential (105-115), it puts them in the top 6 fwds, even accounting for DPP. The bye is the only sticking point for me. I'm taking 3 minimum and if I feel brave I'll take Rozee as well and sideways one or two at bye time if needed.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Not sure why people are thinking Taranto will be a 105-115 player. Yes, he'll have some big games but I've no doubt he'll have sub 80 games thrown in there at times, his disposal is terrible and a new club won't fix that. He's had season played as a pure mid and in 6 years has gone 100+ only once and that was only just.

This combined with going to a team that plays very team orientated football where mids especially at Richmond have never been renowned SC scoring options, I'm struggling to see it. I still think he's worth a forward option but if he was a mid only I'd imagine he'd be close to 0% ownership even if people thought he could still get to 115.

 

[Connoisseur]

Mitchell is interesting. In 2021and 2020 he avgd 11 and 10 CP per game and still had premium SC scores.

2017= 5th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2018= 4th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2020= 9th in Uncontested Possessions per game
2021= 3rd in Total Uncontested Possessions
2022= 46th in Total Uncontested Possession (34th per game)

 

[OnTopBar]

Not sure why people are thinking Taranto will be a 105-115 player. Yes, he'll have some big games but I've no doubt he'll have sub 80 games thrown in there at times, his disposal is terrible and a new club won't fix that. He's had season played as a pure mid and in 6 years has gone 100+ only once and that was only just.

This combined with going to a team that plays very team orientated football where mids especially at Richmond have never been renowned SC scoring options, I'm struggling to see it. I still think he's worth a forward option but if he was a mid only I'd imagine he'd be close to 0% ownership even if people thought he could still get to 115.

I don't think that there's too many that think Taranto will pull a 115 ave. and it's largely irrelevant to mention him in a convo about mids, I guess what people see is his starting price of 91 and a forecast output of 100-105, whether that eventuates is the point that should be up for debate.

 

[freowho]

Taranto is probably a good pick in a bad year but might be off the mark in what looks like a better year. I think he's a bit neutral. I'll plonk him in my team if I need to.

 

[NT.Thunder]

I don't think that there's too many that think Taranto will pull a 115 ave. and it's largely irrelevant to mention him in a convo about mids, I guess what people see is his starting price of 91 and a forecast output of 100-105, whether that eventuates is the point that should be up for debate.

Yeah but again, he's only ever gone over 100 once in his career in a team that was known for high midfield scores in SC to one that is not. The midfielder notion is sometimes a psychological where people think just because his previous years have been as a pure midfielder in SC that somehow this reflects him being a top 6 forward. He likely will be, just tempering expectations on numbers, for me anyway.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Taranto is probably a good pick in a bad year but might be off the mark in what looks like a better year. I think he's a bit neutral. I'll plonk him in my team if I need to.

Exactly, he's there by default for me because simply, the options are scarce.

 

[donnybuang]

Taranto is a 105 proposition for me as a pure midfielder. Very good value and planks him in the top few fwds.

 

[donnybuang]

2017= 5th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2018= 4th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2020= 9th in Uncontested Possessions per game
2021= 3rd in Total Uncontested Possessions
2022= 46th in Total Uncontested Possession (34th per game)

Hmm, interesting. 2023 may be the same as 2022 for him

 

[NT.Thunder]

Taranto is a 105 proposition for me as a pure midfielder. Very good value and planks him in the top few fwds.

Yeah but again, he's never done that in 6 years and the Tigers are not renowned for putting up big midfield scores is my only question mark.

 

[PC]

Yeah but again, he's never done that in 6 years and the Tigers are not renowned for putting up big midfield scores is my only question mark.

This could be the year though NT!

 

[Spifflicator]

Yeah but again, he's only ever gone over 100 once in his career in a team that was known for high midfield scores in SC to one that is not. The midfielder notion is sometimes a psychological where people think just because his previous years have been as a pure midfielder in SC that somehow this reflects him being a top 6 forward. He likely will be, just tempering expectations on numbers, for me anyway.

Agreed NT, Richmond are not going to route the ball through him all the time. He will play his role exactly the way everyone else does at the Tigers. I will be surprised if he averages over 100, and while that should still be enough for a top 6 fwd he wont kill you if don't start him IMO.

 

[froffershanners]

2017= 5th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2018= 4th in Total Uncontested Possessions
2020= 9th in Uncontested Possessions per game
2021= 3rd in Total Uncontested Possessions
2022= 46th in Total Uncontested Possession (34th per game)

How do Collingwood rank as an uncontested possession team in the comp?

 

[BIGB0Y]

Not sure why people are thinking Taranto will be a 105-115 player. Yes, he'll have some big games but I've no doubt he'll have sub 80 games thrown in there at times, his disposal is terrible and a new club won't fix that. He's had season played as a pure mid and in 6 years has gone 100+ only once and that was only just.

This combined with going to a team that plays very team orientated football where mids especially at Richmond have never been renowned SC scoring options, I'm struggling to see it. I still think he's worth a forward option but if he was a mid only I'd imagine he'd be close to 0% ownership even if people thought he could still get to 115.

I disagree with the new club wont fix it, he is a contested player and playing a pure inside mid role, with the likes of bolton, rioli, short etc running past him i see him handballing much more than kicking. Gws didn’t have these elite receivers who can run and carry like the tigers do. I see 105-115 ave from him purely from those to factors.

 

[OnTopBar]

Yeah but again, he's only ever gone over 100 once in his career in a team that was known for high midfield scores in SC to one that is not. The midfielder notion is sometimes a psychological where people think just because his previous years have been as a pure midfielder in SC that somehow this reflects him being a top 6 forward. He likely will be, just tempering expectations on numbers, for me anyway.

I don't disagree with what you're saying and to me the 4th Fwd spot is between Taranto and Butters (at this stage) Butter's issues are widely known but Taranto's output is guesswork. Richmonds issues last year were centred around the lack of clearances from stoppages, they were quite good from centre clearances though. Obviously Taranto was targeted to address those clearance issues and scoring Hopper as well is a bonus, that being said, I think that Hopper will eat into Taranto's minutes as there's really nowhere else for him to play. What does concern me is that the Tigers have a number of players that can rotate through mids now, all of Martin, Cotchin, Bolton and MRJ will be rolling through there, (most of them with significant Fwd minutes) maybe even Short who can rotate through HB (although I hope not) I haven't mentioned Prestia who I assume would rotate off the bench. I would think that there'll be times when Taranto slides forward to allow one of those aforementioned to be on ball, but I don't think that time would be significant.

 

[mwross91]

Who do we think has more upside - Touk vs Mills

Both have young mids around them that are on the up - suns with Anderson / Rowell etc. While the Swans will continue to look to Warner, Gulden and others.

I'm unsure of taking one of these or dropping down to a (hopefully fit) Steele.
Currently running Oliver + Bont plus one of these as the 3rd mid which I'm hoping to use as my core VC/ C options.

Where's everyone's heads at?

 

[NT.Thunder]

I think Miller is at his peak or close to it, I think Mills can go another level but I worry Mills won't be used as a pure midfielder all year and that will hold his numbers back.

 

[Shaunpro1]

I think Miller is at his peak or close to it, I think Mills can go another level but I worry Mills won't be used as a pure midfielder all year and that will hold his numbers back.

Think Mills is alot more likely to bottom out and give you an opportunity to jump on, as good as he was at stages of last year he still dropped 7 scores under 94.

 

[mwross91]

I think Miller is at his peak or close to it, I think Mills can go another level but I worry Mills won't be used as a pure midfielder all year and that will hold his numbers back.

Think Mills is alot more likely to bottom out and give you an opportunity to jump on, as good as he was at stages of last year he still dropped 7 scores under 94.

Yeh I've got similar thinking to both these points. I think as a result, if Steele looks good in practice games I probably pass on Mills and Touk for him.