Position 2023: Forwards Discussion

[Harmonic Nine]

Re: Ziebell

Plenty of the talk on the North Melbourne Bigfooty board is that he is borderline best 22. Most want him out and only think he gets a go because of his status within the club.

I think a few are thinking Ziebell named in the backline correlates to his 2021 season. I don't trust that at all.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Do we know how the sub-rule will run this season? Will teams select a 23 and approx 60 minutes before bounce nominate the sub from the listed team? I assume the sub doesn't have to come from the bench either, can be from anywhere?

 

[Ben's Beasts]

Do we know how the sub-rule will run this season? Will teams select a 23 and approx 60 minutes before bounce nominate the sub from the listed team? I assume the sub doesn't have to come from the bench either, can be from anywhere?

Not too sure on what will be named the night before but on gameday the following will occur;

 

[NT.Thunder]

Not too sure on what will be named the night before but on gameday the following will occur;

View attachment 53390

That's going to make things hard but anyway it is what it is.

 

[wogitalia]

I'd expect it will be the same as last year, sub will come from emergencies and we will get 22 picked. It was the same when the sub existed previously in the form it now is. Hopefully it's like that still, as knowing your guy is in the 22 is much more useful for us than trying to work out a sub from 23 names.

Re: Ziebell

Plenty of the talk on the North Melbourne Bigfooty board is that he is borderline best 22. Most want him out and only think he gets a go because of his status within the club.

I think a few are thinking Ziebell named in the backline correlates to his 2021 season. I don't trust that at all.
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There is a player that fans don't rate for weird reasons at every club. Ziebell is one of the weirder ones given what he's done for the club over the years but he's their guy. It's almost like he gets the blame still for when Scott decided to cull all their great players.

I'd be pretty shocked if Clarko doesn't pick him every week he's fit. Until Hall is back they've got no other decent ball users down back and they've got no intercept defenders. He's their best at both and Clarko has always had huge emphasis on those two things, think of using Hodge, his best player, in that role over multiple other roles. He'd always pick Birchall on one leg just to have his ball use, Burgoyne was used there over the midfield as well. There's been a ton over the years.

 

[AngryAnt]

Am thinking of a risky change. Replacing Rozee and Cogs with Moore and Butters. Don’t think it’s too big a risk unless there is a significant difference in scoring. I like Moores durability over Cogs, and butters appears relatively safe to Rozee.

Not sure how Butters is safe compared to Rozee when Rozee is one of their primary midfielders now and Butters gets injured every couple of weeks.

 

[dicksilverman]

Not sure how Butters is safe compared to Rozee when Rozee is one of their primary midfielders now and Butters gets injured every couple of weeks.

There seems to be a perception that Butters is injured every couple of weeks and he’s not quite up to Rozee’s standard.
2022 - Rozee 22 games avg 93.3, 9 x 100+ games, 3 x 120+ games, 9 x -80 games
2022 - Butters 20 games avg 96.2, 11 x 100+ games, 5 x 120 + games, 6 x -80 games.
Rozee has a higher ceiling but not the consistency. I think either player is a good pick, I’m just going against the crowd!

 

[Montyjnr]

There is a player that fans don't rate for weird reasons at every club. Ziebell is one of the weirder ones given what he's done for the club over the years but he's their guy. It's almost like he gets the blame still for when Scott decided to cull all their great players.

I'd be pretty shocked if Clarko doesn't pick him every week he's fit. Until Hall is back they've got no other decent ball users down back and they've got no intercept defenders. He's their best at both and Clarko has always had huge emphasis on those two things, think of using Hodge, his best player, in that role over multiple other roles. He'd always pick Birchall on one leg just to have his ball use, Burgoyne was used there over the midfield as well. There's been a ton over the years.

Did you watch North's practice game against Richmond? I wouldn't exactly categorise Ziebell as a decent ball user - he loves a hack kick on the boot to no-one.

He has definitely lost a step and the fact he has been thrown around in different positions each of the last 4 seasons tells us they are struggling to find a spot to hide him.

He is very fortunate North lack senior experience, because he would not be playing in any other side right now.

 

[AngryAnt]

There seems to be a perception that Butters is injured every couple of weeks and he’s not quite up to Rozee’s standard.
2022 - Rozee 22 games avg 93.3, 9 x 100+ games, 3 x 120+ games, 9 x -80 games
2022 - Butters 20 games avg 96.2, 11 x 100+ games, 5 x 120 + games, 6 x -80 games.
Rozee has a higher ceiling but not the consistency. I think either player is a good pick, I’m just going against the crowd!

Fair enough, if it works out for you you'll be flying.

 

[wogitalia]

Am thinking of a risky change. Replacing Rozee and Cogs with Moore and Butters. Don’t think it’s too big a risk unless there is a significant difference in scoring. I like Moores durability over Cogs, and butters appears relatively safe to Rozee.

Moore could be a great pick, he's definitely the durable option of the top guys and that can be valuable, probably can't go with the rest on upside though if roles hold up from preseason.

Do find it odd that you're going a lower upside guy for durability reasons on one side and then going for the worse durability pick on the flipside. Have to question your criteria set if you get conflicting picks like that.

 

[dicksilverman]

Moore could be a great pick, he's definitely the durable option of the top guys and that can be valuable, probably can't go with the rest on upside though if roles hold up from preseason.

Do find it odd that you're going a lower upside guy for durability reasons on one side and then going for the worse durability pick on the flipside. Have to question your criteria set if you get conflicting picks like that.

Is your perception of ‘worse durability’ 2 less games? Does the scoring criteria not o***et that in a like for like? I respect your opinion and am curious on how you draw that conclusion?

 

[jobeywatto]

Re: Ziebell

Plenty of the talk on the North Melbourne Bigfooty board is that he is borderline best 22. Most want him out and only think he gets a go because of his status within the club.

I think a few are thinking Ziebell named in the backline correlates to his 2021 season. I don't trust that at all.
View attachment 53387

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This is my worry too. If in the right role he could easily avg 95-100, but is he safe in the team? North supporters don't want him. Clarko seems to be favouring him, but there's a few competing for that role. Could easily see Ziebs being "managed" or even made the sub in Round 4-5 if Clarko wants to give someone else a shot. Hall to come back, and North seem to also be leaning towards playing Sheezel at half back throughout games.

Ziebell definitely has risks - one of those all-or-nothing picks.

 

[donnybuang]

Am thinking of a risky change. Replacing Rozee and Cogs with Moore and Butters. Don’t think it’s too big a risk unless there is a significant difference in scoring. I like Moores durability over Cogs, and butters appears relatively safe to Rozee.

If Butters was fit, yes. But with shoulder concerns its a no.

 

[wogitalia]

Did you watch North's practice game against Richmond? I wouldn't exactly categorise Ziebell as a decent ball user - he loves a hack kick on the boot to no-one.

He has definitely lost a step and the fact he has been thrown around in different positions each of the last 4 seasons tells us they are struggling to find a spot to hide him.

He is very fortunate North lack senior experience, because he would not be playing in any other side right now.

1 scrappy preseason game doesn't change history. He went at 84.7% for the season in 2021 which puts him in the elite of the elite. The only players with at least 300 kicks that were better than him were Luke Ryan, Jake Lloyd and Jordan Ridley.

Plus, it was relative to teammates, even Hall isn't good in this area (75%). The other guys are Logue (terrible), Young/Dawson/McDonald/Corr (not good) and McKay (statistically good because he only kicks rarely and short to safe options). Goater was awful in his one game but should be solid. Perez has also been dreadful and Bonar is even worse than Logue. The fact the guy who takes on the hardest kicks has the highest DE% is actually crazy good.

 

[Beg2Differ]

I'd expect it will be the same as last year, sub will come from emergencies and we will get 22 picked. It was the same when the sub existed previously in the form it now is. Hopefully it's like that still, as knowing your guy is in the 22 is much more useful for us than trying to work out a sub from 23 names.

This is not right. When the sub existed previously (before it was the medi-sub) teams named 22 on Thursday and then nominated the sub 90 minutes before the game (now 60). There was only 3 standard interchanges then.

I desperately hope they don’t revert back to this.

 

[Pieman17]

1 scrappy preseason game doesn't change history. He went at 84.7% for the season in 2021 which puts him in the elite of the elite. The only players with at least 300 kicks that were better than him were Luke Ryan, Jake Lloyd and Jordan Ridley.

Plus, it was relative to teammates, even Hall isn't good in this area (75%). The other guys are Logue (terrible), Young/Dawson/McDonald/Corr (not good) and McKay (statistically good because he only kicks rarely and short to safe options). Goater was awful in his one game but should be solid. Perez has also been dreadful and Bonar is even worse than Logue. The fact the guy who takes on the hardest kicks has the highest DE% is actually crazy good.

Difficulty of kicks has to be taken into account as well as kicking efficiency when looking at the ‘best kicks’.

Not saying Ziebell is not a good kick but he wasn’t breaking the game open with his kicking.

 

[Blue Bloods]

This is my worry too. If in the right role he could easily avg 95-100, but is he safe in the team? North supporters don't want him. Clarko seems to be favouring him, but there's a few competing for that role. Could easily see Ziebs being "managed" or even made the sub in Round 4-5 if Clarko wants to give someone else a shot. Hall to come back, and North seem to also be leaning towards playing Sheezel at half back throughout games.

Ziebell definitely has risks - one of those all-or-nothing picks.

Not sure all or nothing picks. There are a few around his price for a correction, surely one of Fyfe, Bruhn or Ziebell look good.

 

[Blue Bloods]

Difficulty of kicks has to be taken into account as well as kicking efficiency when looking at the ‘best kicks’.

Not saying Ziebell is not a good kick but he wasn’t breaking the game open with his kicking.

Very true. Brett Thornton had one of our best kicking efficiency only because he did the little cross field kicks. Sicily has a good efficiency because he kicks long to a contest, but is also a good field kick. Whitfield I know some think he is a bad kick but a great kick in my opinion just tried the impossible kick to much, more bad decisions that bad kick.

Even the Judds of the world didn’t have great efficiency because they had someone hanging off them most times.

 

[wogitalia]

Difficulty of kicks has to be taken into account as well as kicking efficiency when looking at the ‘best kicks’.

Not saying Ziebell is not a good kick but he wasn’t breaking the game open with his kicking.

Compared to those other Roos he takes much higher degree of difficulty kicks (Hall aside) and is still much higher. On the weekend he took on and hit a couple of kicks that very few players can and they did break it open, it didn't result in anything because the players he hit would then kick to a leading Liam Jones...

 

[Blue Bloods]

Just a side note on Gulden, had Dow as his opponent most the game. Dows biggest weakness has always been his defensive game, just doesn’t follow his man, doesn’t have a clue what to do after a clearance and that game probably put a line through his name.

In saying that hard to ignore Gulden with those numbers