Discussion 2021: Round 1: Teams & In Game Discussion

Joined
15 Oct 2018
Messages
3,912
Likes
12,177
AFL Club
Essendon
David King has unloaded on Grundy, I personally think Grundy will respond/ bounce back next week :-

David King bluntly ripped into Grundy following Friday’s underwhelming performance against the Bulldogs, calling on the ruckman to prove his worth.

The 26-year-old is reportedly in the first season of a mammoth seven-year deal with the Magpies, estimated to work $1 million per year.

“If you’re going to pay someone a million dollars a year, they’ve got to be the difference in the game. You can’t be in question,” King said on Fox Footy.

“He was beaten tonight and you can get beaten game-to-game, but this is on watch now. Tonight they were humbled and I think it starts at the coalface.

“You’ve got to challenge your best players to make a difference and Brodie Grundy, that salary cap squeeze we spoke about last year, it’s largely because of contracts like that.
He just has not looked right since about a third of the way through last year. Still wins the hitouts but can't seem to find the ball the way he used to and it would be a major concern if your a magpies fan - he was such a pivotal part of them being a contender, and now both he and they look quite lost.
 
Joined
15 Oct 2018
Messages
3,912
Likes
12,177
AFL Club
Essendon
Some quick thoughts on the game...

General - Was a decent game, Dogs dominated but couldn't score, Pies backs waxed. So basically it was 2019 all over again. Felt a higher quality game than the night before, less fatigue towards the end and both teams actually tackling but still a very open contest. Through two games it's been noticeable how less physical the game has become already. Basically feels like preseason games which is probably fair given normally it would be!

Biggest takeaway was yet again the stoppage count was really low. I don't know when a trend becomes the norm but I'm personally there that this is going to be a thing this year.

Dogs - Dominated the middle, Martin kept Grundy honest and Grundy was so bad that he looked like he was taking over the Treloar gig of give it to the opponents... Their F50 entries were mostly bad and their forwards are still very hit and miss but they've got to be happy.

Macrae - Everywhere, ratio felt brutal to me but to be honest I think most of the ratios have felt harsh so far, even Dusty to be honest. Happy with the pick.

Smith - Pure wing and just everywhere, they played his wing all night, not sure if that was intentional or a coincidence but he made the most of it.

Hunter - High HF role for mine, supports the preseason when he was clearly also in that role. Doesn't slow him down, his more normal ratio seems to be back after last year.

Daniel - Great ability to just keep ticking the score over and his ratio was godly given he basically had nothing but cheap uncontested touches tonight. He was very good defensively though, don't want to sell him short. Did what you'd hope.

Dunkley - Role was very solid, didn't notice him forward much at all. Shame he didn't really go on with his first quarter, just seemed to keep it ticking over after a monster start but played very well. Happy with the pick.

Williams - Was on my radar but I don't have the balls. No reason he can't do this all year for mine, I mean not 121 level but 100+ he's capable. Clearly the other guy to Daniel.

Libba - Had a very strong role, arguably the best role of all the Dogs for traditional SC.

Bont - Not his best game but looks strong. Did rot forward for more than I'd hope if I picked him but he can score.

English - Played as basically a high half forward, enjoyed the role. Was better in the contest and looks a bit stronger. Hard to see him being consistent in that role though but probably not that different to Marshall last year.

Martin - Really solid game, ratio porn going on the back of his clearance work, won't face someone giving as little effort as Grundy did very often though and did struggle to get involved outside the contest. That midfield is going to give every hitout a chance though. Felt like a high end output from him.

Treloar - Played the other wing most of the night. Was solid but not great. Don't love the role for him for fantasy purposes but given no preseason he could well grow into it. Didn't help the ball just lived on Smith's wing.

Vandermeer - Played an absolute blinder, hurts McNeil even more than McNeil did.

Dale - Grab him in your deeper draft leagues, played a really nice rebounding defensive role.

Scott - Was really solid, basically won all his contests and I didn't see him beaten which is what you want. Love his confidence to back himself and run forward, will get better at getting some cheap touches. Confirmed my thoughts he's one of the better rookies.

McNeil - Stinker, just struggled with the pace, to be fair the Pies have one of the quickest and most well disciplined backlines, he was kind of unlucky that every rushed kick/handball found a Pie and was thus a clanger because he actually did a good job winning the ball to start it. Job will certainly be under fire though which was always his risk along with the poor role.

Pies - They were pretty ordinary. Looked like a team who traded out a bunch of senior players and then rushed a bunch of guys on the back of no season but more worryingly, they looked absolutely heartless. Given their o***eason issues it's hard to not link the whole culling players and stabbing them in the media at every chance with the listlessness they showed tonight. Really concerning game.

Pendles - He was alright, the amount of fumbles and miskicks were definitely a concern though given it's Pendles, he hasn't done that more than a couple of games in his career. Still he was their best, and only, midfielder.

Crisp - He was solid, he seemed to push onto a wing a bit at times to me, given the supply down back I'd argue basically all their defenders were a bit underwhelming and the too many chefs theory was definitely at play.

Maynard - Jumped out to a ridiculous ratio and nothing he did after that seemed to ever claw it back so he ended very favourably. Was really solid though and had a good game, just hard to make any case that he deserved to have that ratio compared to Macrae, Smith, Dunkley or Libba on a side that dominated other than the quirks of SC! Even then, they had ridiculous supply and the DT level is a worry.

Noble - Played back in defense a lot tonight after a pure wing role in the o***eason.

Grundy - Was awful. Looked like the same player as end of last year that we all assumed was injured, think he thought he was traded to the Dogs also this o***eason with the silver service he gave their mids. No follow up efforts, no multiple contests around the ground, rarely got behind the ball to intercept. Honestly not sure if it was him or the game but really Pittonet is the only ruck so far who has actually managed to get behind the play consistently. Grundy dogged it tonight, was a really bad game. I've already structured up for him to go out come next week unless something changes. More to do with how bad he looked than the rule change impacts as I'm targeting Gawn with him now but the combination of how bad the rucks have scored into Grundy has made what should be my last tinker with Gawn out...

Moore - Great game by him.

Cox - He was actually really good, much better than Grundy around the ground and even probably in the ruck. Not saying he's a threat to his spot or anything but if Grundy keeps that effort level up he's going to need a kick up the butt...

Howe - Started like a house on fire and then ran out of steam completely. Another who looked like a man with a very limited preseason. Lot of fatigue moments as the game went on.

Adams - Same as Howe, wasn't terrible in the first but got worse as it went on and just never really got on top of the game. I'd say downgrade target but the Pies looked so bad that's even questionable.

De Goey - There's a trend here... but another with no preseason who was pretty good in the first quarter and a half and then just faded to oblivion. Something that has stood out to me is that the guys on limited preseasons are having a really hard time of it through two games.

Sier - Did nothing after the first quarter either.

Daicos - What an absolute stinker of a game. Didn't even seem to be anything wrong with his role he just fumbled everything and then couldn't get near it.

Henry - He did well to score what he did given the Pies midfield efforts. Bit hard to blame the guy at the end of the chain when the whole chain has melted before it got to your turn. Be interesting to see what the Pies do at the selection table this week and whether they've even got anyone to bring in.
Heard a podcast say that because Grundy is good around the ground that he would be more favoured than Gawn by the lack of stoppages - the opposite is very much the case. Whilst Gawn is reliant on hitouts, Grundy is more reliant on stoppages in general because of the amount of cp's and clearances he gets from them (that being said he didn't look capable of that either tonight). One of Gawn's best traits and something that isn't spoken about enough is his intercept marking - Gawn intercepts better than any ruckman and it has a huge influence on the game. Grundy has historically been more mobile on the whole but his uncontested possessions are often cheaper than Gawn's imo, and Gawn can still get some CP's from marking contests away from stoppage, intercept or not.
 
Joined
18 Jul 2016
Messages
3,770
Likes
26,260
AFL Club
Sydney
Heard a podcast say that because Grundy is good around the ground that he would be more favoured than Gawn by the lack of stoppages - the opposite is very much the case. Whilst Gawn is reliant on hitouts, Grundy is more reliant on stoppages in general because of the amount of cp's and clearances he gets from them (that being said he didn't look capable of that either tonight). One of Gawn's best traits and something that isn't spoken about enough is his intercept marking - Gawn intercepts better than any ruckman and it has a huge influence on the game. Grundy has historically been more mobile on the whole but his uncontested possessions are often cheaper than Gawn's imo, and Gawn can still get some CP's from marking contests away from stoppage, intercept or not.
Yep, that's how I felt all along, Grundy is a stoppage beast who is (was) great on the spread from stoppages for the 2nd possession in the chain as well, would run other rucks into the ground.

Gawn is great getting behind the play, which is the main thing I worry about if he is playing forward more, but secondary to that I also worry that the rucks have really struggled to get behind the play so far, it's moving quickly from 50 to 50 and I don't know if Gawn can get to the contests needed. Gawn has also got the bonus that he's a better marking target for long kicks for his own team, Pies didn't even look for Grundy on kick-outs or long kicks.

I don't really like either right now though. Taking away 10+% of their scoring source is still very significant at their end of the equation. I still like Gawn more because he's a much better ruckman, which means more of the stoppage pie, and he does a lot more things away from the stoppage to score, plus, he hasn't looked like utter crap for the last 8 odd games he's played.
 
Joined
18 Jul 2016
Messages
3,770
Likes
26,260
AFL Club
Sydney
Gawn to Hunter makes $648,000 , it has to be thought about with seemingly less stoppages.
It got me Taranto (who I think the rule changes really suit) and Phillips (ditto) in for a pair of rookies. Alternatively it obviously buys you any player you want.

Think I'm going to back the gut on this one and complain about it in round 3 when I'm reversing those two moves :LOL:
 
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
6,769
Likes
14,766
AFL Club
Fremantle
It got me Taranto (who I think the rule changes really suit) and Phillips (ditto) in for a pair of rookies. Alternatively it obviously buys you any player you want.

Think I'm going to back the gut on this one and complain about it in round 3 when I'm reversing those two moves :LOL:
I'm surprised you think Taranto. I thought he relied on stoppages for tackles.
I'm thinking Macrae, Zerrett, Jelly, Walsh.
Does anyone else have any thoughts?
Another I've considered but am unsure of is McLuggage.
Rather than outscoring the stoppage kings it might just be a flattening of the curve.
 
Joined
13 Mar 2021
Messages
94
Likes
702
AFL Club
Bulldogs
That was an interesting game to say the least!

Some thoughts:

Dogs:

Macrae - Looked excellent and carried on from the game against Melbourne. Thought Treloar might have taken a bit of his mid time, but seemed to excel in both contested and uncontested ball. I do think that as Treloar gets a bit of match sharpness back he gets some of those mid minutes, but basically he did what you'd expect and as wogitalia said, the ratio seemed a bit harsh. Think he leans toward being a better DT pick this season, but from an SC perspective he looks a safe bet to be in the best 4-6 mids again.

Bontempelli - Looked to have a clearly defined role of starting in the middle before spending time up forward later in the quarter. Ratio probably fair given he managed a couple of typical Bont-like clangers which is probably the only thing keeping him from becoming a top 4-5 SC mid. Picked him on the basis that he'd influence things a bit more, but given the sheer amount of ball the Dogs mids had, there's no cause for concern.

Dunkley - Good game, but I'm not convinced. Had a decent amount of mid time and used it pretty well considering the role, but was one of the main beneficiaries of the Dogs sharing it around so much against what was a pretty average midfield. Pretty safe pick as a forward, but I'd probably want to see a bit more pure mid time.

Smith - I dare say there was a bit of Ben Cousins about his ability to cover ground. Looked absolutely outstanding and has cleaned his ball-use up as well. Scoring will probably be a bit more inconsistent than the other mids, but looks to have taken a lot of the Hunter time on the wing.

Libba - If it wasn't for the durability issues I'd have him as a very strong pick. Given how much the ball was pinging around, he'll have some huge games if things slow down a bit. Only issue along with the durability is how he's managed, can see him being eased through games which probably helps Dunkley more than anyone.

Treloar - Think he goes from a 30+ to a 20-25+ player this season. Looked to be managed through the game a bit, and wouldn't be surprised if he ends up as a M/F this time next season. Will have spike games, but overall there are probably better options around.

Daniel - Given his game, you'd have to be very happy with how he scored. Wasn't overly productive early, but worked into things nicely, and looks a very safe bet if he manages to avoid or work through the tags.

Pies:

Pendles - Was considering starting with him, and to be honest the ratio seemed very generous. Given how comprehensively the Dogs midfield won the battle, he'll need to wind back the clock to keep in touch with the top dozen or so mids from an SC perspective.

Adams - Underdone and it showed. Potential upgrade target if he can manage to turn things around, but I'll be steering clear.

Moore - Along with Smith arguably the best player on the ground. Durability remains the big issue, and given the Dogs' delivery inside 50, was probably an early-season spike game more than anything.

Howe - Looked slightly underdone, but the role was still there. Looks a safe pick again.

Grundy - Not sure what to make of his game to be honest. The Dogs obviously had a plan which worked well, but when you're up against arguably the best midfield in the comp a lot of your hitouts are going to get sharked. Would like to see more of the 2019 gut-running, but at this stage there's just enough there to give him another week. One thing I'm not liking is the Collingwood midfield, he's going to have to do a lot of heavy-lifting which has its positives and negatives in terms of his scoring potential.
 
Joined
24 Feb 2015
Messages
6,697
Likes
30,160
AFL Club
Sydney
Okay just reversed trades before heading to work, will stick with Gawn today, one last look at rucks. If he doesn't score well and it looks like it's becuase of the game I'll look to move them on over the next couple of weeks when there's more of an idea around good scoring roles. I was going to go to Neale but his record against the Swans looks pretty thin so will wait.
 
Joined
18 Jun 2012
Messages
6,116
Likes
11,954
AFL Club
Melbourne
I'm as spookable as anyone, but I think the best play is to stick to your guns and atleast get further information on the ruck situation.

I have started Gawn and Grundy for a reason with Flynn at R3, so contry to further evidence, I think I will stick to that for now.

Although Gawn to Meek, would fix my Young at D4 and Heppell at M5 problem 😉.

As I have said before, worst case Meek and/or Hunter go really well, ditch the worst out of Gawn/Grundy and go from there.
 
Joined
24 Mar 2015
Messages
4,154
Likes
14,751
AFL Club
North Melb.
Also well done to the few who started Stef!

I think we may have underestimated the value he provides to the Dogs: he basically rucks by banging into his opponent to nullify their impact, also allowing English to play as a tall forward and an effective second ruck.

In the one area they have constantly struggled they now have a way to draw even. Hope he stays fit for them!
 
Joined
31 Mar 2012
Messages
1,124
Likes
4,780
AFL Club
West Coast
Okay just reversed trades before heading to work, will stick with Gawn today, one last look at rucks. If he doesn't score well and it looks like it's becuase of the game I'll look to move them on over the next couple of weeks when there's more of an idea around good scoring roles. I was going to go to Neale but his record against the Swans looks pretty thin so will wait.
Neale is really interesting for mine, he's in my side right now but based on games so far those with interrupted preseasons haven't fared well, has me second guessing, not great considering he's currently my Captain! Add in his terrible record against the swans 110, 108, 55 in the last 3 and I'm not sure what to expect... actually I think i do.
 
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
4,890
Likes
11,150
AFL Club
West Coast
Some quick thoughts on the game...

Vandermeer - Played an absolute blinder, hurts McNeil even more than McNeil did.

Dale - Grab him in your deeper draft leagues, played a really nice rebounding defensive role.

Scott - Was really solid, basically won all his contests and I didn't see him beaten which is what you want. Love his confidence to back himself and run forward, will get better at getting some cheap touches. Confirmed my thoughts he's one of the better rookies.

McNeil - Stinker, just struggled with the pace, to be fair the Pies have one of the quickest and most well disciplined backlines, he was kind of unlucky that every rushed kick/handball found a Pie and was thus a clanger because he actually did a good job winning the ball to start it. Job will certainly be under fire though which was always his risk along with the poor role.
Macrae stinker, Dunkley awful, Bont - trade him - just remember this was round 1 last year. Complete reversal this game. Bont was average for a number of early games, we learnt that he saw more taggers early in season than later.

Every year you have a player you are uncertain on, think Grundy was no.1 for me followed by Short and Dunkley. Now it is mainly Grundy. Teams have worked out you don't try to when the hit out, just muscle him out so he cannot go for the CP. He then drops his head a bit, think he gets his energy from his taps like Hercules did from his similar long hair.

We do need to remember that generally the Dogs have been the hardest for rucks to score against for last two years due to their mids and tactics, so will give Grundy to round 3 before I react.

McNeill - ended in my team through lack of money ($700 left over just by chance than design), needed it to upgrade Cahill to Impey. Spot on he rushed his possessions and Pies are one of the best defensive teams, deserved to lose by more last night.

Also think Caleb Daniel had an average 1st game, hoping they preserve with McNeill. His high contested possession is a positive, has a fighting spirit. Seemed to not believe in himself and too often tried the team approach which failed. One time was 45m out and should have snapped for goal, ended up kicking over the head of a player on the arc. He is a bit of a Treloar, Dunkley, where he gets rid of the ball not looking to who it is going for. Vandermeer was sensational as was Bailey Smith.

We should all not underestimate Horse and Clarko who are better coaches than we give them credit, they will find a way to ruin the game by slowing it down, just back them in! Love the 2 game no price move is back, two data points is a trend, not one.
 
Top