Opinion Player X vs. Player Y

[PC]

I see what you’re saying but I think it comes down to whether we think Collins and/or Moore are must-haves.

As key defenders with no scoring history behind them I don’t think either are a necessity. There will likely be games where they score 100 SC but I think there will be other games where they score 50 SC. I actually think more often than not they will score closer to 50 than 100. An average of around 70 SC is where I see both.

If I was needing to field one of the lesser rookies such as Burgess or Parker then I would ensure that I pick one of Collins/Moore but as it stands that isn’t the case.

Good post Ben - I have been considering whether Moore is a 'must have' and am struggling to see it at his price. If he was less than 200k then I probably wouldn't hesitate but at 50k more than Collins and with his scoring and injury history...
Its not that I don't like him as a pick but seems I need to really mess with another line or player in order to get him in.

 

[Bomber18]

Good post Ben - I have been considering whether Moore is a 'must have' and am struggling to see it at his price. If he was less than 200k then I probably wouldn't hesitate but at 50k more than Collins and with his scoring and injury history...
Its not that I don't like him as a pick but seems I need to really mess with another line or player in order to get him in.

If Moore averages 80-85, I think he’s a must have, especially with his DPP. Holds up a fwd spot, which is handy as the top fwds are unclear this season.

If you think he averages around 75, probably not a must have but still handy for starters with his DPP.

It’s always tricky to assess rookies off just two games, especially those who are premium priced.

 

[Presto]

I can't understand this fascination with Moore, he had repeated hamstring setback last year, it is always been my cardinal rule that key position players should be avoided like the pest. Not only he find difficult staying on the field, but also his scoring has always been poor: an average of 56 during his career with a spike year of 61(?) in 2017 (2 100s together with a 15, 29, 35 and 36). I think there are better and cheaper options in Scrimshaw, Duursma or Collins. And less risky too. If Moore goes at an average of 70 he will barely make 100k by bye time. As a comparison Scrimshaw needs to go at 60 to make 150k.
My 2 cents

 

[NT.Thunder]

I can't understand this fascination with Moore, he had repeated hamstring setback last year, it is always been my cardinal rule that key position players should be avoided like the pest. Not only he find difficult staying on the field, but also his scoring has always been poor: an average of 56 during his career with a spike year of 61(?) in 2017 (2 100s together with a 15, 29, 35 and 36). I think there are better and cheaper options in Scrimshaw, Duursma or Collins. And less risky too. If Moore goes at an average of 70 he will barely make 100k by bye time. As a comparison Scrimshaw needs to go at 60 to make 150k.
My 2 cents

Exactly my thinking but I keep finding myself adding him to my tea for some reason. The DPP looks beneficial but it means Burgess becomes more a list clogger and unlikely to provide over 50 at any given time so cash generation will be slow.

I'm not sure, I never go in with high priced rookies and this year I find the likes of him and even Ridley in my team with Walsh, Collins, Butters also. Confidence is low with the rookie group.

 

[AngryAnt]

J Scrimshaw (D6 and keep Moore/Burgess fwd/def link), J Kelly (M2) and B Grundy (R1)
Vs
J Petrucelle (F7 and lose Moore/Burgess fwd/def link as both would be on same line), P Cripps (M1) and M Gawn (R1)

I wouldn't be picking Kelly over Cripps so the second one. Who is your r2?

 

[Hondo]

I can't understand this fascination with Moore, he had repeated hamstring setback last year, it is always been my cardinal rule that key position players should be avoided like the pest. Not only he find difficult staying on the field, but also his scoring has always been poor: an average of 56 during his career with a spike year of 61(?) in 2017 (2 100s together with a 15, 29, 35 and 36). I think there are better and cheaper options in Scrimshaw, Duursma or Collins. And less risky too. If Moore goes at an average of 70 he will barely make 100k by bye time. As a comparison Scrimshaw needs to go at 60 to make 150k.
My 2 cents

It’s the kick ins factor under the new rules

It presents new and more lucrative scoring opps for him compared to previous years.

Plus the DPP helps a lot with early trading and on field rookie starters if you also pick Burgess

 

[Connoisseur]

I wouldn't be picking Kelly over Cripps so the second one. Who is your r2?

R2 is T Goldstein.

 

[PC]

If Moore averages 80-85, I think he’s a must have, especially with his DPP. Holds up a fwd spot, which is handy as the top fwds are unclear this season.

If you think he averages around 75, probably not a must have but still handy for starters with his DPP.

It’s always tricky to assess rookies off just two games, especially those who are premium priced.

Fair points Bomber18, but let me throw some stats at you.

Career games = 54 (2015 to 2018)
Career max score = 108
Career scores 80 or above = 10
Career scores 85 or above = 6

Career avg = 57
2015 avg = 54 (9 games)
2016 avg = 57 (17 games)
2017 avg = 61 (21 games)
2018 avg = 49 (7 games)

Yes, you could say he is underpriced due to a poor 2018 and yes the game rules have changed and he has matured, but nothing in those numbers say avg 80 to 85 to me. I will give you his JLT average of 88 is a better look, but Dunn and Howe are yet to come back fully and there are only so many SC points available to share in the Collingwood side.

I hope he gets to 75 for those that take him, but if he doesn't then as Presto said, a 123k defender going at 60 (McKay??) is probably a better choice.

 

[Herbie66]

I guess one of the things with Moore is he is Best 22.

Moore is also playing a different position to the majority of his career.

Scrimshaw , Clark , Duursma , Hore all come with JS concerns (what are the options if they are not even named ?)

The likes of Joyce , McKay , Wilkie might have to sit on our benches scoring 30's

 

[stephen]

Nobody would be picking (or talking about) Moore if he was playing forward like he was in those low-scoring years. According to Fanfooty the two times he played in defence in 2018 he scored 83 and 91SC.

That kind of marking defender role has often been a very good scoring role for older cash cows. He has the kick-ins this year as well, which seems to be an advantage.

I think these must-have debates are pretty amorphous but his DPP and job security certainly make it easier to structure a good team, IMO. Worrying about injury risks with cash cows just hurts your sphincter I think. Some of our cash cows will get dropped. Some will get injured. Nothing in life is certain.

 

[Bermi]

With Howe a possibility to play round#1, does this worry those looking at Moore?

The only worries I have with Moore is that he re-injures again or moved to the forward line. Howe doesn't worry me and Dunn returning should take Roughead's place.

 

[Hondo]

If you take out the injury affected games last year Moore averaged almost 70. I know that's selective.

More selective .. second half of his last full year of games averaged around 75 if you take out the injury affected game.

I know it is a different position but I remember with Witts two years ago there were similar questions because up until that point he had no scoring history and on that basis some questioned how he would even get over 75. Bang, new role and he goes from 50 to 94 in one season.

 

[Bomber18]

Fair points Bomber18, but let me throw some stats at you.

Career games = 54 (2015 to 2018)
Career max score = 108
Career scores 80 or above = 10
Career scores 85 or above = 6

Career avg = 57
2015 avg = 54 (9 games)
2016 avg = 57 (17 games)
2017 avg = 61 (21 games)
2018 avg = 49 (7 games)

Yes, you could say he is underpriced due to a poor 2018 and yes the game rules have changed and he has matured, but nothing in those numbers say avg 80 to 85 to me. I will give you his JLT average of 88 is a better look, but Dunn and Howe are yet to come back fully and there are only so many SC points available to share in the Collingwood side.

I hope he gets to 75 for those that take him, but if he doesn't then as Presto said, a 123k defender going at 60 (McKay??) is probably a better choice.

I really think prior stats don’t really matter too much with him as those are from when he played as a fwd.

The prospectus noted that in the two games he played as a defender late last year, he was putting out elite numbers for a defender. Also has scored well in his two games as a defender in the JLT. He was also still taking the kickins at training and at the pies intraclub from all reports in the preseason. Small sample size but it’s promising.

Passed the “eye test” in JLT as well. So I’ve seen enough and at 240k with D/F, it’s enough for me.

It’s the beauty of SC though, everyone has their own opinions on these sorts of players so completely understandable if you think he’s no chance to go 80+ and think he’s a trap.

 

[AngryAnt]

I really think prior stats don’t really matter too much with him as those are from when he played as a fwd.

The prospectus noted that in the two games he played as a defender late last year, he was putting out elite numbers for a defender. Also has scored well in his two games as a defender in the JLT. He was also still taking the kickins at training and at the pies intraclub from all reports in the preseason. Small sample size but it’s promising.

Passed the “eye test” in JLT as well. So I’ve seen enough and at 240k with D/F, it’s enough for me.

It’s the beauty of SC though, everyone has their own opinions on these sorts of players so completely understandable if you think he’s no chance to go 80+ and think he’s a trap.

I think the risk is worthwhile for Moore given that he's at $239k and the forward rookies aren't particularly plentiful. It's not a bad price to pay for someone who could churn out 80 ppg for 8 to 10 rounds, after which his services can be dispensed with. I think that there are too many decent rookies in the backs to play him there unless you're going super light there. DPP is still handly even without wasting a spot with someone like Burgess for trading purposes. People are paying almost double for Brad Crouch, Rockliff and Williams types who present there own injury risks, for a guy who is essentially just above a "premium" rookie priced player, I think he's a decent option.

 

[bomberboy]

These comments would concern me as a Moore owner: https://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2019-03-18/feature-langdon-rapt-he-stayed-a-pie
"It's great having them around because they can take good key forwards and they give us a lot of aerial support. It's definitely a different dynamic to last season where we were undersized due to injuries,"

Langdon believes Moore, who appears to have arrested his hamstring issues, has "no ceiling" and "could be anything" as a key backman.

And: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/collingwood-beaming-to-go-in-2019-20190318-p5155p.html

“Given the size of (Moore), he’s probably going to get the jobs on the number one or number two forwards.

 

[DojoWarrior]

These comments would concern me as a Moore owner: https://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2019-03-18/feature-langdon-rapt-he-stayed-a-pie
"It's great having them around because they can take good key forwards and they give us a lot of aerial support. It's definitely a different dynamic to last season where we were undersized due to injuries,"

Langdon believes Moore, who appears to have arrested his hamstring issues, has "no ceiling" and "could be anything" as a key backman.

And: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/collingwood-beaming-to-go-in-2019-20190318-p5155p.html

“Given the size of (Moore), he’s probably going to get the jobs on the number one or number two forwards.

Not ideal! I think the fact he is a lock for our best 22, the lack of forward rookie options, coupled with his DPP status + taking kick-ins is sucking everyone in including me, even though the role isn't necessarily the best for scoring. I do however think in the few games he's been playing since the role change, he's looked 10x the player he was up forward (naturally I guess given he was always a backman as a junior). Whether or not that correlates to SC points I guess is a wait and see!

 

[quite ironic]

These comments would concern me as a Moore owner: https://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2019-03-18/feature-langdon-rapt-he-stayed-a-pie
"It's great having them around because they can take good key forwards and they give us a lot of aerial support. It's definitely a different dynamic to last season where we were undersized due to injuries,"

Langdon believes Moore, who appears to have arrested his hamstring issues, has "no ceiling" and "could be anything" as a key backman.

And: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/collingwood-beaming-to-go-in-2019-20190318-p5155p.html

“Given the size of (Moore), he’s probably going to get the jobs on the number one or number two forwards.

Could easily be Liam Jones though who averaged 77 and 71 at Carlton which isn’t bad if Moore could do that as well.

Compared to Collins if Moore can average 75 Collins had to average 65+ to match that which is a thing you have to weigh up if you’re looking at 1 not both of these.

A 123k rookie only has to average 55 to match that but do they have the JS that Moore has?

 

[DojoWarrior]

All this talk around Dunkley is tempting me for F3 replacing T Kelly. Dunkley + $2600 left over cash vs Kelly + $13100? Was already very nervous about going in with 13k, feel like it's not a good move to make that even worse!

 

[NT.Thunder]

Does anyone here have Jack Higgins mobile number? I really need to talk to him about something.

 

[Bermi]

These comments would concern me as a Moore owner: https://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2019-03-18/feature-langdon-rapt-he-stayed-a-pie
"It's great having them around because they can take good key forwards and they give us a lot of aerial support. It's definitely a different dynamic to last season where we were undersized due to injuries,"

Langdon believes Moore, who appears to have arrested his hamstring issues, has "no ceiling" and "could be anything" as a key backman.

And: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/collingwood-beaming-to-go-in-2019-20190318-p5155p.html

“Given the size of (Moore), he’s probably going to get the jobs on the number one or number two forwards.

Good research bomberboy.
Dunn is returning soon and Roughead could also take one of the tall Fwds to free up Moore.