Position 2021: Ruck Discussion

Which ruck setup are you planning on starting with?

  • Gawn/Grundy/Flynn

    Votes: 82 47.4%
  • Gawn/Grundy/Meek

    Votes: 5 2.9%
  • Gawn/Grundy/Hunter

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • Gawn/Flynn/Meek

    Votes: 25 14.5%
  • Gawn/Flynn/Hunter

    Votes: 11 6.4%
  • Gawn/Meek/Hunter

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Grundy/Flynn/Meek

    Votes: 14 8.1%
  • Grundy/Flynn/Hunter

    Votes: 9 5.2%
  • Grundy/Meek/Hunter

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 17 9.8%

  • Total voters
    173
Joined
1 Feb 2014
Messages
1,995
Likes
6,950
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#81
My 2 cents:
I will go Gawn/Grundy/Treacy

Max Gawn: Deservedly the most expensive starting price ever. Some people expect him to drop in value but he has an easy run to start with games against Fremantle, St Kilda, Essendon, Geelong, Hawthorn, and Richmond. He might lose value, but not by any substantial amount.

Brodie Grundy: maybe last year he had a bad year, but still averaged 120.7 points well ahead of anybody else.

Preuss: How can you expect him to average 95, when throughout his career he has averaged in the 60s? Maybe he will, but I believe he is too much of a risk.
 
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
1,466
Likes
4,240
AFL Club
Richmond
#82
My 2 cents:
I will go Gawn/Grundy/Treacy

Max Gawn: Deservedly the most expensive starting price ever. Some people expect him to drop in value but he has an easy run to start with games against Fremantle, St Kilda, Essendon, Geelong, Hawthorn, and Richmond. He might lose value, but not by any substantial amount.

Brodie Grundy: maybe last year he had a bad year, but still averaged 120.7 points well ahead of anybody else.

Preuss: How can you expect him to average 95, when throughout his career he has averaged in the 60s? Maybe he will, but I believe he is too much of a risk.
Preuss played a lot of games alongside Gawn so you can put a line through those games imo as he was basically a forward with a minor ruck role.
 
Last edited:
Joined
18 Jul 2016
Messages
3,772
Likes
26,269
AFL Club
Sydney
#83
My 2 cents:
I will go Gawn/Grundy/Treacy

Max Gawn: Deservedly the most expensive starting price ever. Some people expect him to drop in value but he has an easy run to start with games against Fremantle, St Kilda, Essendon, Geelong, Hawthorn, and Richmond. He might lose value, but not by any substantial amount.

Brodie Grundy: maybe last year he had a bad year, but still averaged 120.7 points well ahead of anybody else.

Preuss: How can you expect him to average 95, when throughout his career he has averaged in the 60s? Maybe he will, but I believe he is too much of a risk.
Counter point on Preuss is that he has scored some very good scores when the #1 ruck. Most of his games are as a 2nd ruck and he's a very ordinary forward so that he's even hit 60s is kind of impressive.

Guys like Witts or ROB have had similar averages in their first hitouts as #1s.
 
Joined
30 Dec 2019
Messages
1,540
Likes
5,910
AFL Club
Richmond
#84
1612520921043.png

SET-AND-FORGET
Max Gawn (Melb) $751,400

Look at that price.

After Gawn posted 12 KFC SuperCoach tons – a staggering seven in excess of 150 - it’s the most expensive in our great game’s history.

But we will ever see it again?

I don’t think so – not this year anyway.

That’s not saying he won’t finish as the No. 1 scorer in the game again, his average may just take a hit.

You don’t me need to tell you how influential he is in the ruck and around the ground but you may need to be told this influence appears to have been scaled up further than usual in shortened quarters last year.

Gawn spent longer on the ground, he’s better at performing under pressure and, given there was less time to affect the match, more players had minimal impact at the bottom-end than usual. It resulted in more scaling done at the top-end, and the Melbourne big man was always there.

In 2019, Gawn scored 150 or more in 19 per cent of his matches. Last year, it was 50 per cent.

Big scores – 140 or more – were up across the board, with 16 more recorded despite 90 less total games being played.

Again, while there may not be a repeat of the extraordinary stretch between rounds four and eight, which featured scores of 141, 163, 153, 185 and 157, he will still go big.

Especially with match-ups against Sean Darcy, Braydon Preuss, Rhys Stanley and Ben McEvoy/Jon Ceglar in the opening six rounds.

The Phantom’s Verdict: I’m tipping Gawn to still lead the competition but he may do it with an average closer to 130 – and that means a significant price fall. You’re getting the likely No. 1 scorer in his position and a go-to captain option, but there’s better value.

Brodie Grundy (Coll) $648,200

And this guy is that value.

He played second fiddle to Gawn last year, but in the previous two seasons, the Collingwood big man was the No. 1 player in KFC SuperCoach.

Not just of all ruckmen. Grundy scored more points than anyone else, after posting KFC SuperCoach tons in 38 of his 44 matches.

His other six scores were 81, 84, 86, 99, 95 and 98.

Was he carrying an injury 2020? Was his form a direct reflection of the difficulties of hub life? Did the shorter quarters limit his ability as an accumulator?

Possibly yes to all of the above.

The 26-year-old is also as durable as the come, playing every home-and-away game in the past three seasons and missing just three matches since 2015.

The Phantom’s Verdict: Expect Grundy to meet Gawn in the middle at around the 130-point mark this year. And that makes the $100k difference very, very appealing.

THE CHALLENGERS
Reilly O’Brien (Adel) $570,800

In the 13th game of his career, in Round 13, 2019, O’Brien announced himself as a KFC SuperCoach ruckmen of the future, scoring a huge 181 points against the Tigers.

It was also the confirmation, he was Adelaide’s No. 1 big man, and that Sam Jacobs’ time was up.

He kicked off 2020 with 107 and 161 in the opening two rounds, before struggling with some inconsistency.

But, on the back of a strong finish – he averaged 119 in the final month of the year – O’Brien increased his KFC SuperCoach from 95 to 106.

He may be the sixth-ranked ruckman for hitouts-to-advantage but the 25-year-old finished with more tackles, contested marks and intercepts marks than Gawn and Grundy last year.

And he’s still only played 37 AFL games.

So can the young Crow seriously challenge the top two as his all-round game continues to develop?

The Phantom’s Verdict : Maybe not this year, but KFC SuperCoaches should still expect another spike.

Tim English (WB) $551,200

Tim English is the next Dean Cox, the champion former West Coast Eagle who was just as dominant around the ground, with his ball-winning and foot skills, as he was in the ruck.

That was the statement made by many 12 months again, even earlier by some.

Yes, I was one of them.

And after seven rounds last year, there weren’t many arguing.

After a quiet opening two rounds, out-muscled by Brodie Grundy and then the Paddy Ryder-Rowan Marshall combination, English exploded, posting scores of 120, 145, 125, 105 and 204 in the next five matches.

His influence was then quelled around the ground and in the air for the best part of two months, before finishing strongly with a 126-point three-round average.

Assessing his 2020 numbers per 100 minutes, English, on average, had more disposals, marks, intercept marks, goals and effective kicks than he did in 2019.

The 23-year-old’s hitout numbers were also up slightly, with English winning 5.4 hitouts-to-advantage per game – up from 5.1.

It’s an area he still falls behind in but the arrival of Stefan Martin as both big-bodied support, and as a mentor, will help, as will another pre-season.

Cox’s first big season, number-wise, was his fifth – and that’s where English is at in 2021.

The Phantom’s Verdict: He’s got a way to go, but that’s exciting for the Bulldogs and KFC SuperCoaches. It would still be brave call to start him in 2021, however.

CAN HE MAINTAIN IT?
Nic Naitanui (WC) $593,700

Less matches, shorter quarters and scaling weighted more in-favour of high-impact acts. Was there a player more suited to KFC SuperCoach in 2020 than Naitanui?

No.

But, despite nine KFC SuperCoach tons – five of them in excess of 135 – the answer to the question of whether or not he can better his 2020 average of 110 and seriously challenge Grundy and Gawn is just as definitive.

No.

And, at the price, you would be picking him to do exactly that.

The Phantom’s Verdict: As much as I love watching him play, he’s not a point-of-difference I’d be banking on this year.

DOES HE STILL HAVE IT?
Todd Goldstein (NM) $601,700

In the three years following his dominant 2015 season, which saw him average 129 KFC SuperCoach points as the No. 1 scorer in the game, Goldstein fell, posting season averages of 108, 95 and 101.

Many wrote him off as legitimate challenger to the No. 1 ruck spot.

But after 112 in each of the past two seasons – to rank third behind Gawn and Grundy – the answer to the subhead is yes, he does.

The Phantom’s Verdict: But is it enough to start him? Not with Grundy just $47k away.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...e/news-story/c236398d160f1ba50b3f422959bbcaf0
 
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
4,890
Likes
11,150
AFL Club
West Coast
#86
For those focusing on Gawn losing $100k because he averages 10 less points and MN deterioration, think this is a fallacy of a way to look at him.

All players who meet their average will go down 7-8%, so you can say that about many premiums.

Gawn loses circa $60k if he average 130. Yes, Preuss if he plays well will go up in price, although you are contending with Mummy not taking his spot if GWS lose a few games and the pressure comes on. re Hickey, Horse has already said they will play 2 rucks in some games and we know how Naismith went several years back when that was the case.

To me, there is always a few things when considering this. Previously I have started Naismith 2020, Lycett 2018 etc.

1) When I have uncertainty on best two rucks, have always picked the mid pricer to give me time to assess who will be no.2.

2) Certainty of ruck premiums vs premiums in other lines. When struggling with picking mids, the other lines need more certain keepers.

3) The mid pricer ruck needs to be forced rank against any other mid pricer/rookies in your team to assess upside $$/points/return on invested capital.

4) ROIC - don't underestimate this. As @wogitalia noted elsewhere, higher priced mid pricers can take longer to go up as one average score really slows their momentum. Further, if you are trading the player as not a keeper, the ROICs important. $150k made on a $123k player is worth a lot more than $150k made on a $300k player, as excess capital is invested elsewhere to bring in a premium hopefully.

5) ROIC - further points on this, is we are fixated with $150k gain, whereas, investors in real assets focus on % gain. The blending of this for SC is important.

5) By investing in more certain premiums that are higher priced, you effectively will open one more spot up in the team for another rookie which should generate you more cash. If you nail your premiums who hold their ave then you are well ahead, if not, compensated if you make extra $$ on rookie.

6) The record on picking break out players is mixed, less so for a role change or change of clubs such as Preuss. Chances of keeper are less than 5%, which most know when picking these players.

Given Gawn Grundy look high chance of top 2, English impacted by Martin and Goldy by age and weak team, Grawndy for me. There will be injuries of premium players who have a low score and I want to be focused on snapping them up.

The decided reason for GRAWN is not the above points, it just sounds so much more powerful than Prawn or Grickey, Hiawn or Maawn.
 
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
1,376
Likes
5,070
#88
I'll be licking my lips when I trade Preuss out for $500,000 and trade Gawn in for $670,000 and make $280,000 in cash!
For that to be realistic and complete it before the end of the year you'd need Gawn to average 125 (not out of the question, he averaged 128 in 2018 and 2019) and Preuss to average 110, which he's scored twice ever. Note: that's obviously not average, that's 110+ in a game twice ever.

I know his situations that capped him but your lips have a strong chance of remaining dry if you're relying a second string ruckman to do that - Witts is the closest example I can think of and even he only averaged 95.

Even if Preuss averages a marginally more realistic 100 (still only scored more than that twice ever; still no example of this happening) there's a high chance you won't see your scenario until the second half of the year or even later, and you've been leaking points the whole time.
 
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
4,890
Likes
11,150
AFL Club
West Coast
#89
I'll be licking my lips when I trade Preuss out for $500,000 and trade Gawn in for $670,000 and make $280,000 in cash!
I can given you a different way to also look at this.

A person doesn't start Neale (starts Gawn) and uses a $123k rookie who goes to $323k. Neale drops $70k and your gains are the same, yet he used the extra $170k (Preuss vs Rookie price) to upgrade Hately to Walsh pre round 1. Walsh becomes a keeper at 110 ave $600k value, Hately average 80 and barely goes up in value and needs to be traded. Now you are using a trade and need $200k to upgrade Hately to Walsh.

So whilst the rookie and Preuss trades have made money, Gawn and Neale go down by the same value, the ripple impact of spare change has seen someone use one less trade and made $200k more.

It is not Gawn vs Preuss, more Preuss vs other non keepers and the deployment of capital to generate the gain plus how u spend spare change. Lots of ifs, just think it is more complicated than one decision.
 
Joined
15 Jan 2018
Messages
1,973
Likes
5,007
AFL Club
Richmond
#90
I'll be licking my lips when I trade Preuss out for $500,000 and trade Gawn in for $670,000 and make $280,000 in cash!
That’s if preuss gets to 500k.... we all know gawn smashes out 150 pretty regularly. I’m not sold on an unproven ruckman in preuss. You also use 2 trades to get him in maybe 3 if preuss back fires.
 
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
1,466
Likes
4,240
AFL Club
Richmond
#91
For that to be realistic and complete it before the end of the year you'd need Gawn to average 125 (not out of the question, he averaged 128 in 2018 and 2019) and Preuss to average 110, which he's scored twice ever. Note: that's obviously not average, that's 110+ in a game twice ever.

I know his situations that capped him but your lips have a strong chance of remaining dry if you're relying a second string ruckman to do that - Witts is the closest example I can think of and even he only averaged 95.

Even if Preuss averages a marginally more realistic 100 (still only scored more than that twice ever; still no example of this happening) there's a high chance you won't see your scenario until the second half of the year or even later, and you've been leaking points the whole time.
You're not leaking points as you've spent $450,000 elsewhere.
You do lose that captaincy option for Gawn though I accept that.
 
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
1,466
Likes
4,240
AFL Club
Richmond
#92
I can given you a different way to also look at this.

A person doesn't start Neale (starts Gawn) and uses a $123k rookie who goes to $323k. Neale drops $70k and your gains are the same, yet he used the extra $170k (Preuss vs Rookie price) to upgrade Hately to Walsh pre round 1. Walsh becomes a keeper at 110 ave $600k value, Hately average 80 and barely goes up in value and needs to be traded. Now you are using a trade and need $200k to upgrade Hately to Walsh.

So whilst the rookie and Preuss trades have made money, Gawn and Neale go down by the same value, the ripple impact of spare change has seen someone use one less trade and made $200k more.

It is not Gawn vs Preuss, more Preuss vs other non keepers and the deployment of capital to generate the gain plus how u spend spare change. Lots of ifs, just think it is more complicated than one decision.
If it's Preuss vs Hately , Preuss is clearly the better option.
This extra rookie probably won't go up to $323,000 if it's the 3rd choice rookie for that position.
 
Joined
24 Feb 2020
Messages
4,897
Likes
13,335
AFL Club
Collingwood
#94
It may be a bit too simple in comparison to some of the detailed points above, but I see things this way.

1.Gawn is not in my team to make money, his role is to score points.

2.He goes large, and you definitely want the VC/C on the Beard when that happens.

3. Don’t mess with your Ruck Line. Set & Forget. Lesson learned in my 1st year.

4. Suggest you run you eyes over the beards first month of fixtures.

5. If the beard pumps out a 140avg the first month, good luck getting him into your team.

“Disclaimer only my 3rd year.”
 
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
1,376
Likes
5,070
#95
You're not leaking points as you've spent $450,000 elsewhere.
You do lose that captaincy option for Gawn though I accept that.
It's a fair point but you usually are because of the most common scenario - people will spend the saved cash in their midfield, which is also where the safer bargains can be found. So they think they've bought themselves more reliability and points but it's not equivalent bang for their buck.

If you're spending the saved money on an extra forward or defender premium then yes, best case scenario is you're just moving points around.
 
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
1,466
Likes
4,240
AFL Club
Richmond
#96
It's a fair point but you usually are because of the most common scenario - people will spend the saved cash in their midfield, which is also where the safer bargains can be found. So they think they've bought themselves more reliability and points but it's not equivalent bang for their buck.

If you're spending the saved money on an extra forward or defender premium then yes, best case scenario is you're just moving points around.
Also if you play Preuss you're playing one less rookie, who is likely going to be a weak rookie , as it's your 7th or 8th choice rookie.
 
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
4,890
Likes
11,150
AFL Club
West Coast
#97
Also if you play Preuss you're playing one less rookie, who is likely going to be a weak rookie , as it's your 7th or 8th choice rookie.
That same logic can work with any mid pricer. I am not against Preuss and he may rank better than Caldwell, Hately etc.

However, if I was to have a 300k mid pricer in my team (anywhere), rather than a cheaper weaker rookie on my bench, then it would rob me of the 170k needed to get to a butters or dunkley (depending on other choices) in the forward line. every team is different and my point is to convey we can focus on Gawn vs Preuss gain, however, it is also Preuss vs off field rookie.

Note it is not this weak rookie which comes on the field, if you have 7 rookies on the field, it is other teams 8th rookie who comes on, not their lowest rookie. In the mean time they have Gawn (capt) vs Preuss vs how u used the money + how they used the $170k saving over Preuss.

Its the ripple impacts and loose change theory which needs to be considered when picking anyone more than the cheaper available rookie. Not suggesting to pick a rookie who gives you 30pts per week, that doesn't make sense either.
 

Bomber18

Leadership Group
Joined
11 Nov 2012
Messages
27,409
Likes
65,138
AFL Club
Essendon
#98
I was trying to see where my Gawn value is being spent.

Essentially was something like:
Taranto (105) + Rozee (90) + Preuss (90)
Vs
Atkins (75) + 123k fwd rookie (55) + Gawn (130) +15k

285
Vs
260

I’d argue my guys could score +10ppg more than that too!

Different XYs for everyone but it’d be interesting to see what everyone’s Gawn in and out XYs are. I know Gawn over Grundy is a consideration for some but I really can’t see myself leaving out Grundy as I think he could easily match Gawn this season. Longer games work better for him.
 
Joined
9 Dec 2020
Messages
2,370
Likes
12,058
AFL Club
Essendon
#99
I was trying to see where my Gawn value is being spent.

Essentially was something like:
Taranto (105) + Rozee (90) + Preuss (90)
Vs
Atkins (75) + 123k fwd rookie (55) + Gawn (130) +15k

285
Vs
260

I’d argue my guys could score +10ppg more than that too!

Different XYs for everyone but it’d be interesting to see what everyone’s Gawn in and out XYs are. I know Gawn over Grundy is a consideration for some but I really can’t see myself leaving out Grundy as I think he could easily match Gawn this season. Longer games work better for him.
I would hazard a guess the Gawn option would generate more cash though so it comes down to whether that is worth the 25 points a week.
 
Top