Opinion Questions For Rowsus

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Hey Rowsus - A while back I did some modelling of SC across most of a season to compare Guns & Rookies and Mid-Pricers - see posting #44 in the thread SC 2021 : Starting Structure
In view of your statistical interest, I was wondering if you could have a look and see what conclusions you might come up with.

*edit by Rowsus
G'n'R vs MPM
I actually started a maths model on something very similar on Thursday.
I haven't read your post completely yet, but will get to it shortly.
 

Rowsus

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Rowsus my good man, I know we discussed the big breakout premium guys who improve +20 points and the pretty consistent decline in the following season.

Was wondering if that study ever got extended to see how they bounce back in the season next season to see if it was generally a declining consolidation becoming a launching pad or that those seasons tended to be anomalies and the return towards previous scoring was the more accurate outcome.

Love your work as always :)
Wogitalia, thanks for the good words.
I haven't updated my files in a little while. I'll see if I can get to it the next few days.
In the meantime, have this little snippet, that applies from 2005 to 2017.
There were 166 players that made a 15+ point jump in average, and their new average was 90+.
Only 46, or 28%, managed to have a higher average the next year!
It shows how hard it is to back up a decent jump in average!

You may also be interested in:

Fallen Premiums
100+ Season Players Sorted By Age

Admittedly the game has changed a lot in the past 5 seasons, and so has the profile of an AFL player, but a few these things still hold up pretty well!

Question answered in more depth at:
2021 Updating Some Old Rowsus Threads
 

Blue Dragons

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Hey Rowsus,

Is it crazy to be contemplating picking Pendles as my M5 when I can afford any mid besides Neale?

I have question marks over a lot of the premo mids that has me doubting them and the only one for Pendles is his age.

So I want to pick him but then I think it is probably better to just pick a Clarry / Macrae type. Thoughts?

Thanks
 

Rowsus

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Hi Rowsus,
I've been scribbling some numbers on the back of the coaster and I'm wondering if I have things wrong.

12 starting premos
Cash cows are a mix of rookies & midpricers.
10 upgrades avg $500K = ~ $5mil to get to full premo
15 cash cows value $2.5mil so need to generate an extra $2.5m to pay for the premos

Assume 3 down / 2 up for upgrading rookies to premos means selling 15 rookies to get the 10 premos + 5 replacement rookies(~$600k).
So the 15 rookies being sold need to generate $2.5mil + $600k in value ie ~$210k each (over their starting price) to get us to a full premo side.

This seems more that the conventional thinking of rookies needing to generate $150k.
Have I made some incorrect assumptions, or is it as bad as it looks?
Hi jel,
I could be wrong, but I think you have edited this, from when I first read it, which is fine, of course.
I think were you have gone wrong, is you have used 2 different assumptions.
First assumption: 3 down / 2 up
Second assumption: the 15 Rookies need to generate $2.5m + $600k.

Assumption 2 has you using 15 Rookies to generate the cash, but assumption 1 has you needing 25 Rookies. Each 2 upgrades requires 5 Rookies (3 going down, 2 going up). That means 25 Rookies to get your 10 upgrades.
Now look at how it adds up with 25 Rookies.
25 Rookies become 10 x $500,000 Prems + 15 x $120,000 Rookies = $6.8m
$6.8m / 25 = $272,000. Given we cash our Rookies out an average of around 90-95% of their full potential, and the MN gets down to around 5,150, that means Rookies need to average $272,000 / 0.925 / 5,150 = 57 for you to achieve this model.
I hope that makes sense, but if it's not clear, please feel free to ask for a clarification.
 
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Not sure if you've ever done it before but has anyone ever compiled anything regarding ACL and the 1st/2nd/3rd year back, especially for star players.

Doch the guy who I'm considering that it's relevant for as would love to see if there is a strong trend for 2nd year bounce back.

Guys I can think of as possible examples:

Robbie Gray, NicNat, Walker, Goddard, Brodie Smith, Rich, Hayes, Hartlett, Kreuzer, Libba and Suckling all come to mind.
 
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Not sure if you've ever done it before but has anyone ever compiled anything regarding ACL and the 1st/2nd/3rd year back, especially for star players.

Doch the guy who I'm considering that it's relevant for as would love to see if there is a strong trend for 2nd year bounce back.

Guys I can think of as possible examples:

Robbie Gray, NicNat, Walker, Goddard, Brodie Smith, Rich, Hayes, Hartlett, Kreuzer, Libba and Suckling all come to mind.
I believe Rowsus did when Libba came back, -10% impact year 1 from memory.
 

Rowsus

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Hey Rowsus - A while back I did some modelling of SC across most of a season to compare Guns & Rookies and Mid-Pricers - see posting #44 in the thread SC 2021 : Starting Structure
In view of your statistical interest, I was wondering if you could have a look and see what conclusions you might come up with.

*edit by Rowsus
G'n'R vs MPM
I actually started a maths model on something very similar on Thursday.
I haven't read your post completely yet, but will get to it shortly.
Hey warewolves,
I've read through your post a few times now. I can see you put a lot of thought and effort into it, but unfortunately, there is a big problem in at least one of your assumptions.
In your MPM team you have 17 players priced at an average of $385,300, or 71.7/game, and you have them scoring at 81.5/game.
Let's look closer at that.
In 2020 there were 99 players priced between $360,000 and $410,000.
Those 99 players averaged out at 11/64 for the season.
If we remove the ones that didn't play Round 1, you now have 73 players that averaged 13/70.
You are pretty much (in a normal season), needing them to play 10 to 16 games, and average 81.
If we say that requirement last season reduced to 8 to 13 games, because of the less games, due to Covid.
Only 10 players managed that, and you need 17.
If we look at the 17 highest averaging players, in the $360,000 to $410,000 area last season, that played 8 games or more, you get that those 17 players averaged out at 15/83, which meets the requirements for your model. But what are the chances you will find those 17, or 17 players that will give you your 81.5/game?
Let's look at that mathematically. We'll give you a break, and say nailed the top 5, which is incredibly hard (basically impossible) to do. There are about 18 players you can choose those other 12 players from. There are 18,564 ways you can choose 12 players from the 18 you need.
The number of ways you can choose 12 players from the pool of 68 players you are looking at is 7.2 x 10^12.
That means you are roughly a 390,000,000 to 1 chance, of getting your 17 Midpricers to average 81.
The model I have looked at, based on those 73 players, says that even if you nailed the top 5, you are still likely to only average around 76 from your 17 Midpricers. The 72'ish they were priced at, is probably a more realistic result.
Even when shopping in the cheaper end of the players list, it is really hard to pick 4 or 5 players that will outscore their pricing. To find 17, as we have seen, is bigger odds than Powerball!
 

Rowsus

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Is it great chance if I don't start Lloyd and Neale then I can get them way cheaper latter thoughts
It really depends on your definition of "way cheaper".
Here's the thing with that sort of thinking though.
Let's say Neale averages 105 over the first 7 Rounds, and falls in price to $600,000. People say I will grab him! But when push comes to shove, are you going to pay $600,000 for a player now averaging 105 over the 7 Rounds into the season???!!!
It's easy to say "yes" now, it's a lot harder at the time!
 

Rowsus

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Hey Rowsus,

Is it crazy to be contemplating picking Pendles as my M5 when I can afford any mid besides Neale?

I have question marks over a lot of the premo mids that has me doubting them and the only one for Pendles is his age.

So I want to pick him but then I think it is probably better to just pick a Clarry / Macrae type. Thoughts?

Thanks
Hey Blue Dragons,
the easiest way for me to answer that, is to quote you one of my responses from the SCS Coaches Corner thread.

Who’s the player you want to pick but can’t fit in?

Pendlebury
With Treloar gone, and clouds over some of their other Mids, IF Pendles stays fit, I expect him to have a very good season.
 

Rowsus

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hunter or meek to go with Flynn at r2 if I dont go with grundy r2
Both have question marks over their JS, and both have the potential to be good scorers, if they get a decent run at it.
I'll say Meek, as he has less quality in front of him, keeping him out of the team, than Hunter has.
 

Rowsus

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Not sure if you've ever done it before but has anyone ever compiled anything regarding ACL and the 1st/2nd/3rd year back, especially for star players.

Doch the guy who I'm considering that it's relevant for as would love to see if there is a strong trend for 2nd year bounce back.

Guys I can think of as possible examples:

Robbie Gray, NicNat, Walker, Goddard, Brodie Smith, Rich, Hayes, Hartlett, Kreuzer, Libba and Suckling all come to mind.
I believe Rowsus did when Libba came back, -10% impact year 1 from memory.
Here is the post GFB is referring to. It is from 2/2/2016, post #5,183, page 260.


I'm not aware of a collective list anywhere with ACL or similar injuries. I don't think it is worthwhile seeing how non-SC relevant players performed after coming back, as it is much easier to return to a lower base, than a higher one.
Suckling went: 93, 81 - KNEE - 77, 73
Malceski went: 34, 67, 101 - KNEE Pre-season + 9/66, 52, 96 - KNEE Pre-season + 12/68, 76, 91, 105, 71
Walker T went: 49, 62, 63, 100 - 5/69 Knee - 80, 83
Gray R went: 90 - 2/71 KNEE - 82, 111, 110
Z Smith is an example of it being easier to return to a lower level
Smith Z went: 78, 70 - 8/77 KNEE - 76, 79

In general, I would err on the conservative side, and say they need at least one season back to get going again.
I'm not aware of any deep analysis anyone has done.
 
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Both have question marks over their JS, and both have the potential to be good scorers, if they get a decent run at it.
I'll say Meek, as he has less quality in front of him, keeping him out of the team, than Hunter has.
Meek could be main ruck with Other fwd mainly I guess so but low coin left in mine would have structure slightly different if meek over hunter.
 
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Rowsus I've heard people say 'the supercoach winner will start a 3 rookie ruck ", is this a plausible play or just crazytalk?
Thanks for all your research so far.
 
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Rowsus I've heard people say 'the supercoach winner will start a 3 rookie ruck ", is this a plausible play or just crazytalk?
Thanks for all your research so far.
There's a few factors to this...

1. If the 3 rucks play to round 10 and average like first rucks normally do(75-90), then anyone who picked them has a solid headstart. That's an enormous IF though. This also assumes Gawn/Grundy don't blow their starting price out of the water.

2. The kind of player who is willing to take that risk is probably the kind who will also take risks elsewhere, even if the big IF at 1. comes to fruition they'll likely have overreached in other areas and undo a significant portion of the gains.

3. It's totally plausible that the 3 rookie rucks works because of the premiums not picked, it's the underrated aspect that if Gawn and/or Grundy fail, not having them is probably a significantly larger advantage than the advantage that the rookies provide over other rookies, realistically let's say that playing Flynn and Meek, who both average 85 (probably a best case scenario), this means benching two other rookies who let's say are averaging 70 (generally ballpark of the weakest on-field rookies without factoring cost), assuming those two rookies cost the same, you're looking at ~65k extra and 120 points over the first 8 weeks before both are likely exiting stage right, that's not a huge advantage but avoiding a Cripps like performance from Gawn and/or Grundy would be an enormous advantage.

4. The reality is that the risk/reward on the 3 rookies isn't likely to create a huge gap barring injury to Gawn/Grundy or abject failure by one/both of them.

Ultimately I don't think the risk reward is there unless you're really, really down on Grundy and/or Gawn as starting picks or really, really high on the rookie rucks. They're probably going to be among the top few rookies but they're not that far clear of the other rookies you'd play on field to get a huge advantage.
 
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There's a few factors to this...

1. If the 3 rucks play to round 10 and average like first rucks normally do(75-90), then anyone who picked them has a solid headstart. That's an enormous IF though. This also assumes Gawn/Grundy don't blow their starting price out of the water.

2. The kind of player who is willing to take that risk is probably the kind who will also take risks elsewhere, even if the big IF at 1. comes to fruition they'll likely have overreached in other areas and undo a significant portion of the gains.

3. It's totally plausible that the 3 rookie rucks works because of the premiums not picked, it's the underrated aspect that if Gawn and/or Grundy fail, not having them is probably a significantly larger advantage than the advantage that the rookies provide over other rookies, realistically let's say that playing Flynn and Meek, who both average 85 (probably a best case scenario), this means benching two other rookies who let's say are averaging 70 (generally ballpark of the weakest on-field rookies without factoring cost), assuming those two rookies cost the same, you're looking at ~65k extra and 120 points over the first 8 weeks before both are likely exiting stage right, that's not a huge advantage but avoiding a Cripps like performance from Gawn and/or Grundy would be an enormous advantage.

4. The reality is that the risk/reward on the 3 rookies isn't likely to create a huge gap barring injury to Gawn/Grundy or abject failure by one/both of them.

Ultimately I don't think the risk reward is there unless you're really, really down on Grundy and/or Gawn as starting picks or really, really high on the rookie rucks. They're probably going to be among the top few rookies but they're not that far clear of the other rookies you'd play on field to get a huge advantage.
Yes good points thankyou, basically the rookie rucks make more money but not that much more .
The ruck/rookie strategy is only a huge advantage if Gawn or Grundy get injured or go backwards.
 
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Hey greetings Rows! :D
Hope you've been well!

I know I usually don't pick your brain until mid to late season however I'm getting some last minute cold feet regarding one player you will be super familiar with....Clayton Oliver. Might be a really silly question but do you think he is a "must have" as a starting pick?

He's been in all my team drafts this year mainly because I've been convinced by the talk of "ohhh this season you have to have durable players, his injury record is really good etc etc.". BUT I'm just looking at who Melb play in the first three rounds...Freo, Saints & GWS. This worries me as I think he'll get tagged by Saints (by Ross?) and then definitely by De Boar against GWS. I reckon he will probably average around 110 for the year but is it worth starting him over players like Steele, Merrett, Fyfe or Jelly in terms of starting picks?

Reason I'm asking is because if I can save another 30-40k downgrading Oliver, I can then upgrade Dow (who I'm not convinced about) to J.Clark. I know picking Clark is a big risk due to the Chris Scott factor but I don't want to miss out in the case that it does turn out to be a good pick and he goes on to make 100-150k more and can then be used as a stepping stone.

Anyways, wish you the best of luck in the upcoming season! 💪
No doubt we'll be in touch throughout :)
Cheers!
 
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