Position 2023: Midfield Discussion

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Richmond
This supports the fact that you can stuff early picks up, including mid-pricers - as long as you correct them quickly.

He selected 8 players between $255K and $455K. You can argue whether they are fallen premos, potential breakouts, or just "great value almost rookie-priced" like Cogs. 3 of them - Gov, Rowell and Berry were gone by round 4. Imagine if this team had started with Sicily (very plausible pick) and Sinclair (much harder to see coming).

I can't see how correcting mid-pricers is any more problematic than correcting rookies, which everyone accepts is ok.
He worked hard early to lose those failed MP picks, McGovern got injured in rnd 2 (always a risk and I had him too) Berry didn't look the goods and Gawn had a very high BE ( he went on a tear over the next 5 rnds, ave of 140) , those 3 were his 1st 'outs', he brought in Heeney and Xerri (both on the bubble) and Short to shore up his weak Def.

Next trade outs was a failed 'value' pick in Daniel, another Def. with a suss role in Crisp and an injured/dropped rookie in Stephens. He brought in Oliver (for a 68, ouch) N Martin and Bowey (for a very handy $120k cash grab) and fielded him for a 47 (this rnd was his worst ranking for the year)

Next trade outs were another failed MP in Rowell and the cash grabs from Bowey and Hinge, the ins were Sicily, Noddy (for a very handy 103) and English for a 138 (but had to be traded the very next week)

The rest of the year was standard stuff apart from a couple of in/outs like Parish and Heeney which I think were bye based.

What it highlighted to me was that he removed those failed picks quickly (still made a couple of mistakes eg Gawn) and improved his team whilst doing so. He however couldn't have improved his team unless he used the value held in his MP's wisely, ie: it couldn't be done with just rookie values as early as what he did.
 
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Bulldogs
This supports the fact that you can stuff early picks up, including mid-pricers - as long as you correct them quickly.

He selected 8 players between $255K and $455K. You can argue whether they are fallen premos, potential breakouts, or just "great value almost rookie-priced" like Cogs. 3 of them - Gov, Rowell and Berry were gone by round 4. Imagine if this team had started with Sicily (very plausible pick) and Sinclair (much harder to see coming).

I can't see how correcting mid-pricers is any more problematic than correcting rookies, which everyone accepts is ok.
I agree with most of the commentary re this post from @Locus Levy Lunacy, @freowho & @OnTopBar and strongly recommend that anyone thinking thru the issue of the best starting structure should have a good look at the way the winner navigated 2022 - thanks for your great work @Beg2Differ in laying it out for us to analyse.

Just a couple of other observations on Raymagoos strategy.
* traded very hard (perhaps you could say ruthlessly) from round 3 to round 16 at which point he had only 2 (3 edit) up his sleeve
* picked four great value plays Witts, Cogs, Brodie & Hewett who he stuck with all the way (except Hewett who went at R19)
* his four most expensive mids - MaCrae, Miller, Neale (543), Cripps(454) survived to the end - but the latter 2 were not in the top priced bracket
* you could argue he made some errors Gawn to Xerri in R3 etc and clearly had some bad luck - bringing in Parish, English & Steele just ahead of injuries

I doubt there is "winning" SC formula - but last year shows that Guns & Rookies isnt the only way we should look at it.
 
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Carlton
I have no problem with people doing this. You won't receive overwhelming support here (or on any site) though. The majority will generally default to a more guns and rookies approach.

I decided at the end of last season that I was definitely picking LDU, Warner, Green and Serong this year. I've cooled on Serong (partly for team balance, also keen on Titch), but I want to pick the other 3. What happens is, you continually read that it's not a good idea and get "brainwashed" into going with the masses.

It is always said that "you need everything to go right with your mid-pricers". The thing that doesn't get mentioned by those picking all the top-dollar guns, is the other half of that equation - the rookies. Oliver, Laird and Miller etc. may well pump out 130's and outscore Parish, Anderson, LDU, Warner etc. but those people are exposed to more rookie scores on-field. They need more rookies to continue to get selected and to score at an acceptable level.

Your midpricer might drop a 50, but rookies might drop a 20 and get dropped. History shows that there are not an unlimited number of rookies that perform as required. It is usually about 10 or 11 that can be deemed genuinely successful picks. Given everyone will have 8 or 9 on the bench, those that need a further 8 or 9 on-field are exposed to greater risk. Even if their on-field rookies perform, they may have weak or non-existent cash generators on the bench relative to a more mid-priced team. It doesn't look like we have the free-hit cheap keepers like Cogs and Brodie this year, meaning there are likely to be more positions that require upgrading.

My advice would be to stick to your original thinking. There is nothing wrong with any of the players you listed.
100% spot on. You see teams that have stacked mids with Laird, Oliver, Miller all selected going down to Hopper at M6, and it looks great, then you look at the other lines where they've got these $123k type rookies on field who are potential sub candidates or not even in the best 22 for their respective teams. Even if these $123k types play, or even a more expensive type like Ben King, do you really want scores of 20 on your field?
 
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Richmond
100% spot on. You see teams that have stacked mids with Laird, Oliver, Miller all selected going down to Hopper at M6, and it looks great, then you look at the other lines where they've got these $123k type rookies on field who are potential sub candidates or not even in the best 22 for their respective teams. Even if these $123k types play, or even a more expensive type like Ben King, do you really want scores of 20 on your field?
I have Hopper at M6 but no 124k rookies on field, Oliver/Laird/Bont M1-M3, then a couple of breakout types (for now) in Green and Warner.

To do this I've compromised on the Def line with Yeo at D2, my reasoning thus far is that the higher scoring lower priced players are showing up on that line, so Goater, Ginbey and McKenna fill out D4-D6, if there looks to be a standout mid rookie like Phillips/Ashcroft then I might have to adjust my structure to accommodate
 
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Essendon
To be fair I don't think anyone is saying all midpricers are bad or no midpricers is good.. it seems like everyone is advocating for balance just from opposite sides of the line. I would probably give the same feedback and advice to a team that had no $300-$450k players as I would to a team that had loads in that price range - none are inherently bad.. but it's the wrong balance that kills you.

One thing I will say is be careful taking too much from the previous winner's strategy and saying "he won last year so it must be the way to play". Last year was unique in a lot of ways, but particularly in getting Cogs and Brodie SO cheap, plus there being so many other value plays pay off. Getting a potential keeper from a $260k player allows for a lot of other things to happen in your favour. Part of what allowed the winner to make so many correction trades was the safety new of those value guys that would at the very least, make plenty of cash. One thing that does stand out is he wasn't particularly lucky when he went hard and still had trades for the run home (albeit not many) - it's not like he needed perfection to get there. So I think there is merit in going hard, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should massively change your starting risk profile. Going extra risky cause of those trades is just as likely to backfire... I'd prefer to look at it as a safety net for my natural risk profile, rather than an excuse to increase my risk profile.

It's early days and it could change, but we don't seem to have that same depth at that price point - plenty of value in the $300k range but this year is also looking different for a number of reasons. Ruck situation looks messy, def rookies could well be our best bet, byes look different and last a round later, changes to the sub rule, etc.
 
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Carlton
I have Hopper at M6 but no 124k rookies on field, Oliver/Laird/Bont M1-M3, then a couple of breakout types (for now) in Green and Warner.

To do this I've compromised on the Def line with Yeo at D2, my reasoning thus far is that the higher scoring lower priced players are showing up on that line, so Goater, Ginbey and McKenna fill out D4-D6, if there looks to be a standout mid rookie like Phillips/Ashcroft then I might have to adjust my structure to accommodate
It might work for sure going light in the backline which could be a winning strategy this season. I'm assuming your D3 is someone like Bowes or Clarke?

I also dont want to over expose my bench with dud rookies who potentially will not make the required money and have their cash generation completely stalled if they're subbed, and that risk increases the deeper you go with these rookies.
 
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To do this I've compromised on the Def line with Yeo at D2, my reasoning thus far is that the higher scoring lower priced players are showing up on that line, so Goater, Ginbey and McKenna fill out D4-D6, if there looks to be a standout mid rookie like Phillips/Ashcroft then I might have to adjust my structure to accommodate
This suggests Bowes/Jones at D3
 
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Richmond
It might work for sure going light in the backline which could be a winning strategy this season. I'm assuming your D3 is someone like Bowes or Clarke?

I also dont want to over expose my bench with dud rookies who potentially will not make the required money and have their cash generation completely stalled if they're subbed, and that risk increases the deeper you go with these rookies.
This suggests Bowes/Jones at D3
Yes, you're both correct, Bowes at F3 for now.
 
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I agree with most of the commentary re this post from @Locus Levy Lunacy, @freowho & @OnTopBar and strongly recommend that anyone thinking thru the issue of the best starting structure should have a good look at the way the winner navigated 2022 - thanks for your great work @Beg2Differ in laying it out for us to analyse.

Just a couple of other observations on Raymagoos strategy.
* traded very hard (perhaps you could say ruthlessly) from round 3 to round 16 at which point he had only 3 up his sleeve
* picked four great value plays Witts, Cogs, Brodie & Hewett who he stuck with all the way (except Hewett who went at R19)
* his four most expensive mids - MaCrae, Miller, Neale (543), Cripps(454) survived to the end - but the latter 2 were not in the top priced bracket
* you could argue he made some errors Gawn to Xerri in R3 etc and clearly had some bad luck - bringing in Parish, English & Steele just ahead of injuries

I doubt there is "winning" SC formula - but last year shows that Guns & Rookies isnt the only way we should look at it.
Wow didn't realise they only had 3 trades left at rnd 16 :eek:. I had quite a few trades left that were meant to surge me up the rankings in the last 4 rounds for the inevitable carnage that occurs every single year (ironically except for 2022!). I ended up not even using all my trades, had 1 left. Finished 198th but reckon i would have finished top 100 if Cripps suspension was upheld like it should have been, as i had the trades to correct. I cannot remember a year ever having as little carnage in the late rounds as 2022. Any other season the winner probably would have finished outside the top 10 with only 3 trades left for 7 rounds.
 
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100% spot on. You see teams that have stacked mids with Laird, Oliver, Miller all selected going down to Hopper at M6, and it looks great, then you look at the other lines where they've got these $123k type rookies on field who are potential sub candidates or not even in the best 22 for their respective teams. Even if these $123k types play, or even a more expensive type like Ben King, do you really want scores of 20 on your field?
You can do it without $123k rookies on the field (I am doing it now, but my R2 is scary looking!)...
 
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Part 3...



Viney - Nope.

Warner - See Mills for my Horse trust issues but this is another absurd upside play. He's got the potential to be the best midfielder I've seen at Sydney since Paul Kelly, heck I'd even say that Paul Kelly is the best comparison I have for him, if you take my word on anything, take my word that a Paul Kelly comparison is about as high a praise as I could ever give, honestly he was basically the perfect midfielder for anyone I've gone too deep on the time frame for comparisons! So the negatives are easy, Horse position roulette and tags, he broke a couple, died under a couple in the last 10 weeks. He averaged 114 over the last 8 (dips a bit with the Melbourne final if including those but was outstanding in the other two). Durability has to date been good, admittedly limited reference points. He's that ultra rare midfielder that wins contested ball, breaks from contest and is in the elite of the elite kicking it. Needs to tackle more but another preseason should help with that and guys who are as game breaking at stoppages as him will always be lower in that area because they're the primary moving target. He's the one young gun I'm genuinely happy and support getting midfield minutes over Mills and Heeney. He genuinely could win a Brownlow this year, he's that good. He needs to get more pill, tackle more and would be nice if he'd spread better from contests to get more easy ball in space and, honestly, that's the perfect group of "weaknesses" you want in ridiculous break outs. For what it's worth that was basically Dangerfield's list before he went supersaiyan. Given he's probably the best kick in the team (we've got Mills, Gulden, Campbell and Blakey so that's not hollow praise) and that he is nigh on uncatchable when on the run it makes zero sense that his entire preseason wouldn't be focused on how to break from stoppages to remain dangerous. If he jumps to 28 touches, adds a couple of marks and a tackle, that's 120+ with how he uses and his ability to kick goals if he gets the ball within 120m of goal. Ok, so the potential is absurd but time to temper that, I think he ends up more likely in the 110-115 range, you've got to account for Horse, he'll do random stuff, there'll be a month where he experiments, load manages or whatever he does, I think tags are going to be a huge issue and that this year will be spent working through them and how to beat them, this is a positive long term as the things he needs to add to break them are the same things that will allow him to average 135 and be the best midfielder in the league, this is the year that will test him on whether that is the goal or if he's happy with being really, really good. He's another one who is an exceptional breakout pick, perfect season for him is probably 130, he should push towards 110, which is an M8 failure point, he's cheap enough you wont do much better in season on that 110 outcome. I can't fault anyone who goes this pick and I honestly hope you've nailed it!

Kennedy - I like him but his durability is terrible and I can't see how he goes to a higher level barring injuries to others.

Treloar - Preseason issues dent what could have been a very interesting play if he'd claimed the Dunkley role. I think he probably starts forward as they ease him in and becomes viable as a result at round 6.

Titch - I have absolutely no read on him. He's got his issues, I don't think the Pies style suits him, his defensive work definitely slipped last year, I'm not entirely sold the Hawks phased him out of the guts purely just to give the kids minutes. On the flipside, he's exactly what the Pies need inside, his best role by so much it's not funny, with Pendles, Sidey, Daicos x2, Maynard and Crisp there's a lot of smooth moving outside types for him to create scoring chains through, his scoring history is impeccable in the right role, his durability has been excellent, albeit has been banged up a few times. Honestly, I'm going to find it hard to not pick him if he busts out a big preseason score, you could argue that all the negatives I listed on him have applied his whole career. There's definitely a concern that none of the Pies mids scored well last year given Macrae is a Richmond disciple and it's unavoidable that they played a similar style last year of chaos ball. Honestly, I don't want to pick him so I'm hoping he gives me that 95 type score that allows me to but of all the players I want to avoid on this list, he's the one giving me the most Sicily vibes (aka the prick that will ruin my season entirely this year when I don't pick them, Sicily is just the latest and actually one of the few I didn't like, normally it's someone like Mitchell that I have a soft spot for!). Honestly, he's hard to argue against.

Crisp - Not for mine, if he goes back, scores well and all that, then he'll get DPP but I'm not picking a guy I don't think can hit M8 levels on those grounds.

Perryman - Nope.

Prestia - Nope, durability, new horses, Richmond, etc.

Shiel - Nope.

Amon - No one will pick him but when I look at the Hawks list he's quite clearly their best midfielder and I love Newcombe and Wingard but he's just so much better in creating space and using up territory than Newcombe and he's just way more reliable than Wingard. He's not as good a kick as he looks but he's got serious ability to find the ball when used as a midfielder, which was incredibly infrequent at Port where they're loaded in that area with what are just better players in Boak, Wines, Rozee and Butters especially but he fits the Hawks style well. The question for me though is do they use him on a wing, where they've got so many other options, or do they throw him inside and unleash him. He could easily average 115+ on the latter, he's a few points underpriced only on the latter role. Mitchell mostly did things that made sense last year, I personally thought he was clear coach of the year so I rated what he did so unlike some other coaches I have faith here. Not enough to take the punt on Amon but honestly, of the 0% guys he's absolutely the one I'd pick if his role looks good.

Cerra - Not for mine, may start hot while Walsh is out but I can't see the role, like a McCluggage, he's the guy who's excellent on a wing in a midfield group of, excellent, grunts.

Lyons - He looked to have been phased out last year, obviously if he wasn't and there was something wrong and he's back in the guts he's a must watch. He's right at the prime range for you're not likely to beat this starting price for your M8 in season and he's a proven 117 scorer, that's higher than M8 potential. Dunkley and Ashcroft and the way he finished last year would take some serious convincing for mine but he's still a must watch.

Simpkin - I don't know why but I still like him, he's so close to that, "He is what he is" declaration and I can't even really say why I expect he could score 115 other than I actually don't understand why he doesn't already :LOL:. He's really good at basically everything you'd want but just doesn't seem to roll over to the next level to be great. Part of it is a terrible team but others have overcome that. I mean I'm not even going to bother here but one year I expect he'll have that season and I'll feel good on the inside!

Serong - Yet another who can have a brilliant case made, in a weird way he's already on the Simpkin path where he's kind of been a notch below what I expect each year and yet still really good. JOM is super unfortunate, from a fantasy perspective he's just a thorn in all the relevant guys' sides. Honestly, I love Serong as a player but there's nothing he does right now that makes me go 120+ potential, he may yet add those traits but I think he struggles to push past 110, probably good for an M8 pick at his price but, broken record, I think there's higher upside options than that target unless you're genuinely trying a left field strategy on that.

M. Crouch - I think I've moved on from this guy getting me every preseason, just. If the word of an exceptional and perfect preseason came out and he tore the preseason to shreds then maybe he'd drag me back into our toxic relationship like that ex we all screw up and go back to after one drink too many and just like we regret that, I will regret if I start Crouch again and yet... At this point I think he's more a reason to not pick Laird than he's an option himself.

Rowell - Wouldn't shock me at all if he averaged 115, not one bit. I'm not going near it as it wouldn't surprise me if he played 4 games, dropped 50k and needed a trade and I can't find a strong case for option A being more likely than option B. Seriously though, this isn't a bad value play here. He still spent a lot of time last year doing defensive jobs and experimental running patterns and unrewarded positioning, not even bad spots but just options that a good team uses and a bad team ignores, aka he does things at levels that a lot of his teammates aren't looking for. He tackles a lot, he uses the ball well despite the ugly kicking action and he refuses to not make everything contested. Not dissimilar to Warner in that the areas to improve are the "easy" areas to improve. He needs to work to space and demand the ball more, just get more easy pill in general and for Rowell, hit the scoreboard (a lot more). They're the easiest aspects to improve when targeting a breakout and a lot of it is just going to come from confidence and improved fitness bases. I'm not picking him but I actually really like his breakout candidacy and he's another of those super unique plays that I think is actually a very good one.
Great multi-page write up mate, you articulated pretty much the same things im saying about most of these blokes internally - this resonates

Well done 👊
 
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Read Boak to drop out of mid rotations a bit. Butters and Rozee did USA trip to high performance running coaches, as looking to step up...
Boaks a pretty decent forward would have thought theyd just use him up there but got to watch things like that in their pre season games.
The sub rule makes the midpricers more appealing.
Gut feel is raw mid rookies get eased in with subs, think the top line will be fine but weve got to pay up for them.
 
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Analysing the previous winner is a fool's errand, imo. There's aspects to take away but trying to mimic it will produce more problems than answers.

Last year had two very strong unique situations that shouldn't be discounted.

1. Almost no injuries, suspensions or even resting to anyone relevant after the byes which meant that exhausting your trades at the byes was the right play in hindsight.

2. Brodie, Coniglio, Sicily, Hewett, Cripps and Witts all being keepers from genuine midpriced positions AND being in every side. Witts was the only one of that group that wasn't mainstream and even he wasn't uncommon. There was also Daicos scoring at near premium levels over the season that is almost unheard of.

It could well happen again, the year before wasn't that far off doing it either but it's very rare to have that many and all the mainstream guys just work.

Those are both pretty uncommon occurrences that enabled that strategy to be the best option.

I do think that the extra trades and the DPP adding a lot more flexibility and coverage to teams was also a strong factor in why his strategy worked and those both will remain this season, I know I used a couple of trades in round 15 to add M9/10 and D7/F7/R3 coverage in my side with genuine premiums and most would have similar.

The other vastly underrated aspect is just getting your captain and rookies right, especially early in the season where there's a lot more variability.

It's also worth noting that while we may focus on him correcting bad starting choices, it's hard to not note that his trade targets were generally very good. Heeney, Short, Sicily, Sinclair, Dawson, Docherty, Oliver, Wines, Parker, Laird, Mills, Darcy, Cameron and Bont were all nailed on. His only misses were Parish, Steele and English the first time around. Going 14/17 on premium targets is pretty damn great and probably the single biggest takeaway.
 
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Is Dunkley going to reduce Neale's scoring?
Wait and see the preseason. Neale's best work actually coincided with some more help, makes him harder to tag and more ball means more spread points for him but could definitely eat into his ratio a bit by stealing some tackles and contested pill.

I think personally I'd say he's probably more help than hinderance.
 
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Analysing the previous winner is a fool's errand, imo. There's aspects to take away but trying to mimic it will produce more problems than answers.

Last year had two very strong unique situations that shouldn't be discounted.

1. Almost no injuries, suspensions or even resting to anyone relevant after the byes which meant that exhausting your trades at the byes was the right play in hindsight.

2. Brodie, Coniglio, Sicily, Hewett, Cripps and Witts all being keepers from genuine midpriced positions AND being in every side. Witts was the only one of that group that wasn't mainstream and even he wasn't uncommon. There was also Daicos scoring at near premium levels over the season that is almost unheard of.

It could well happen again, the year before wasn't that far off doing it either but it's very rare to have that many and all the mainstream guys just work.

Those are both pretty uncommon occurrences that enabled that strategy to be the best option.

I do think that the extra trades and the DPP adding a lot more flexibility and coverage to teams was also a strong factor in why his strategy worked and those both will remain this season, I know I used a couple of trades in round 15 to add M9/10 and D7/F7/R3 coverage in my side with genuine premiums and most would have similar.

The other vastly underrated aspect is just getting your captain and rookies right, especially early in the season where there's a lot more variability.

It's also worth noting that while we may focus on him correcting bad starting choices, it's hard to not note that his trade targets were generally very good. Heeney, Short, Sicily, Sinclair, Dawson, Docherty, Oliver, Wines, Parker, Laird, Mills, Darcy, Cameron and Bont were all nailed on. His only misses were Parish, Steele and English the first time around. Going 14/17 on premium targets is pretty damn great and probably the single biggest takeaway.
Well note, smart trade ins. The other positive is that his starting didn't include some random 200k who he nailed, it was players we all considered Witts, Hewett etc. Most started Cripps, Rowell, Brodie, Cogs and Daicos, the person just went a few extra's.
 
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Well note, smart trade ins. The other positive is that his starting didn't include some random 200k who he nailed, it was players we all considered Witts, Hewett etc. Most started Cripps, Rowell, Brodie, Cogs and Daicos, the person just went a few extra's.
Yeah, Witts was probably the biggest starting selection. Macrae was also a very important starting pick as he was the only premium who really defended his price last year of the top tier guys.

There will have been better starting sides than his but very few would have hit trades at the rates that he did last year.

He also mostly avoided the ruck problems that many had (despite trying to create them for himself).

Even his ruthless jettisoning of players was pretty unique in how well it worked. He nailed most of them but it's very common that holding on is actually the better move, so again, the fact he hit at an absurd rate on his targets was what allowed him to pull it off. Credit to him but I'll hazard that his season is more anomaly than standard historically. This year will be a really strong indicator whether the significant rule changes last year with so many extra trades available and the DPP changes is what drove his anomalous season to be so successful or if it was other factors.
 
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Yeah, Witts was probably the biggest starting selection. Macrae was also a very important starting pick as he was the only premium who really defended his price last year of the top tier guys.

There will have been better starting sides than his but very few would have hit trades at the rates that he did last year.

He also mostly avoided the ruck problems that many had (despite trying to create them for himself).

Even his ruthless jettisoning of players was pretty unique in how well it worked. He nailed most of them but it's very common that holding on is actually the better move, so again, the fact he hit at an absurd rate on his targets was what allowed him to pull it off. Credit to him but I'll hazard that his season is more anomaly than standard historically. This year will be a really strong indicator whether the significant rule changes last year with so many extra trades available and the DPP changes is what drove his anomalous season to be so successful or if it was other factors.
He no doubt had a bit of luck but trading aggressively looks the way to go in modern fantasy sports, if you're too patient you can very quickly fall behind.
 
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What are people's thoughts on Finn Callaghan from GWS as M6-M7 for a stepping stone? The was a top draft selection and with Tarantpo/Hopper gone he may get more mid minutes. Only $244k and is supposedly training the house down.
 
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