Position 2023: Ruck Discussion

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#81
Hi @wogitalia I’ve followed your posts for a couple of years (very knowledgeable and insightful). My concerns with Marshall are the change to the sub rule (which could make clubs more inclined to have a second ruck) plus the lack of other FWD options for the saints with King and Hayes not fit (mostly this). They will possibly need Marshall inside 50 more than in the ruck. What do you think?
I'm actually not phased by the sub rule at all on that front. Others have said it but they'll likely sub out the 2nd ruck leaving Marshall effectively one out in the most important minutes. I don't expect they'll sub the 2nd ruck in blowouts either.

Basically it helps him if they do pick two rucks, which I don't think will be most weeks personally.

The FWD part is the much bigger problem as I do think that's possible. Campbell vs Marshall as rucks isn't a huge variance but as forwards it's enormous. Same would apply with the other non-Hayes options.

Honestly we have no idea how Lyon will structure up either. With all of Howard, Cordy, Battle, Wilkie, Highmore and Van Es capable of playing KPD, does one of them perhaps go forward (Battle seems the obvious) to cover the injuries? Sharman and Membrey are both capable. Keeler another who probably has the athletic skills to play straight away for them and could act as the 2nd ruck also (was shocked he fell so far in the draft).

Very nice detailed analysis, was thinking the same today re: Ahhh rucks lol and had Marshall and Grundy, with Cameron and Jackson at one stage, thought I'd just put Witts and English as my R1 and R2.... all I had to do to achieve that was take Cameron out of the fwd line and replace him with Fyfe. When I look at my Rucks now I just feel like I have some peace of mind instead of worrying what Marshall or Grundy might do and how much ruck time they'll actually get etc. Just gotta hope English can stay out there.
I think I'll start Witts, it could fail miserably but to me it makes the most sense, there's just no good reason he can't back up last year in my mind. Not saying he will just that there's no good reason he shouldn't. Kind of reminds me of when Gawn went to 102 and I remember many didn't like him to start 2016 and then he improved further. Honestly, I think I can make as good a case for Witts at 120 as Witts at 95, not that I expect either.

English is one of the many high upside bad durability plays this year. Seem to be absolutely loaded with them. We've really been spoiled by the Grawndy starting picks in the past!


I haven’t followed the recent discussion on the sub rule influencing ruck selections. What is the latest chat on that?

Is the argument that a second ruck is more likely to be started, as they can be subbed out for a quicker/more versatile player if they play poorly or are not required to ruck much?
I think you've nailed the logic for why teams might be more likely to pick two rucks.

I'm not sure I buy it.

Firstly you aren't going to pick them unless they can play 4 quarters, injuries too common to risk that. So effectively the 2nd ruck would still have been picked last year if you'd pick them this year.

I do think we'll see the 2nd ruck subbed out more commonly though, teams who get to late in the third with no injuries I dare say will often sub the 2nd ruck. I actually see this is as a benefit to those who are the clear #1 rucks as they'll get the heavier workload in the prime of the game. Probably favours the fitter rucks who run out games well as they're more capable of being left one out.
 
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#83
I'm actually not phased by the sub rule at all on that front. Others have said it but they'll likely sub out the 2nd ruck leaving Marshall effectively one out in the most important minutes. I don't expect they'll sub the 2nd ruck in blowouts either.

Basically it helps him if they do pick two rucks, which I don't think will be most weeks personally.

The FWD part is the much bigger problem as I do think that's possible. Campbell vs Marshall as rucks isn't a huge variance but as forwards it's enormous. Same would apply with the other non-Hayes options.

Honestly we have no idea how Lyon will structure up either. With all of Howard, Cordy, Battle, Wilkie, Highmore and Van Es capable of playing KPD, does one of them perhaps go forward (Battle seems the obvious) to cover the injuries? Sharman and Membrey are both capable. Keeler another who probably has the athletic skills to play straight away for them and could act as the 2nd ruck also (was shocked he fell so far in the draft).



I think I'll start Witts, it could fail miserably but to me it makes the most sense, there's just no good reason he can't back up last year in my mind. Not saying he will just that there's no good reason he shouldn't. Kind of reminds me of when Gawn went to 102 and I remember many didn't like him to start 2016 and then he improved further. Honestly, I think I can make as good a case for Witts at 120 as Witts at 95, not that I expect either.

English is one of the many high upside bad durability plays this year. Seem to be absolutely loaded with them. We've really been spoiled by the Grawndy starting picks in the past!




I think you've nailed the logic for why teams might be more likely to pick two rucks.

I'm not sure I buy it.

Firstly you aren't going to pick them unless they can play 4 quarters, injuries too common to risk that. So effectively the 2nd ruck would still have been picked last year if you'd pick them this year.

I do think we'll see the 2nd ruck subbed out more commonly though, teams who get to late in the third with no injuries I dare say will often sub the 2nd ruck. I actually see this is as a benefit to those who are the clear #1 rucks as they'll get the heavier workload in the prime of the game. Probably favours the fitter rucks who run out games well as they're more capable of being left one out.
Do you think Grundy gets subbed? I've gone for both Grundy and Gawn as my rucks and personally don't see that as a risk.
 
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#88
Do you think Grundy gets subbed? I've gone for both Grundy and Gawn as my rucks and personally don't see that as a risk.
Would be genuinely shocked if he was unless he falls off a cliff as a player this year.

His biggest strength was always running other rucks into the ground in Q4, I can remember many games he scored 50+ in Q4 and either saved a bad day or put the stamp on a good one. Workrate and around the ground contributions are his strength.

Gawn is a good enough forward to cover him and I can see those two genuinely breaking a few other rucks in the league this year.

Also with their midfield, absolute domination of the ruck is their clear advantage over other sides, I'd think they'd want the even bigger advantage of Gawn/Grundy over teams who do sub their already completely outmatched 2nd ruck and end up with either their #1 going the whole quarter or a Dunkley type at R2!

I'd think they'd be subbing Brown if they want to go smaller as the obvious choice or whoever their other KPF ends up being.

Reality is that injury will be the reason for the sub far too often for teams to be trying to use it tactically. They're more likely to continue to pick subs with versatility to cover injury than structure changing types. Half the finals last year used the sub on injuries, including one idiot who picked two injured players for a GF... I'd imagine the rate across the season was similar.
 
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#89
During the bye rounds is R13 best 18 or best 22?

If it is best 22 then R13 makes Witts a non-selection.
It's best 18, so it's just another reason he makes sense. Essentially he doesn't even have a bye round you need to cover while being there to cover everyone else. Honestly could make a case it's worth 70+ points of value that bye, by then you're probably going close to 18 premiums while the other byes will be scraping a side together.
 
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#90
Do you think Grundy gets subbed? I've gone for both Grundy and Gawn as my rucks and personally don't see that as a risk.
Similar to wogi's comment above, I don't think Gawn and Grundy are a big sub risk.

Imagine the luxury of having one of the best around the ground rucks of the last few years (Grundy) hitting your elite midfield for 15 mins of a quarter and then when the opposition primary ruck has a rest you bring on... Max Gawn (!) to eat alive the Cal Jamieson's and Kieran Briggs' of this world. Scary thought and one that should have a coach salivating.

It's actually making me take another look at Gawn as a starting pick, because I think they start Grundy at the CBAs with Gawn dangerous as a forward, then he gets ruck minutes at the end of each quarter against either a battered first ruck or sloppy seconds. In 5 miuntes of rucking at the end of a quarter he could win a bag of HTA and marks and scoop up 20pts :unsure:
 
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#91
I‘m planning on starting English and a value option such as Lycett or Draper.
Lycett would be my first preference but he may face more competition for ruck duties as I have a favourable impression of Teakle. I haven’t seen any intelligence on the likely ruck set up at Port.. does anyone have an insight on this one?
 
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#92
How'd he go covering the ground? The reports, that I probably should be transparent about weren't "all", I've seen, were that during running sets he was a fair way off the pace.
Can't recall Reg ever coming anything but last in the time trials at the Pies. He might have beaten big Mason and our sizeable rehab group but that would be it

Grundy is an endurance beast. He works by running his opponents into the ground, not by outruckung them or doing them for pace. It's why he struggled (by his standards) against double teams or properly equipped rucks
 
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