Position 2023: Ruck Discussion
- Thread starter KLo30
- Start date
I'm very bullish on Darcy, never really got going last year and still ended up at 102, hard to see how hes not 105 minimum with an actual fitness base behind him which will be more than enough this season, added bonus that hell be unique as everyone seems to have written him off already, forward time doesn't really worry me as hes never been an 80% CBA Ruck and can actually be dangerous while up there.
Grundy is a serious watch for me, gut feel is he really can't play anywhere but in the Ruck, Gawn having an interrupted pre season isn't going to hurt his chances of the lion share early on either.
I picked Witts against the pack last year so won't be afraid to be taking on the popular names if I prefer other options.
Grundy is a serious watch for me, gut feel is he really can't play anywhere but in the Ruck, Gawn having an interrupted pre season isn't going to hurt his chances of the lion share early on either.
I picked Witts against the pack last year so won't be afraid to be taking on the popular names if I prefer other options.
I like Darcy but durability is obviously a huge issue and the Jackson factor is a major concern, for someone who wont pick Fyfe because of his forward craft to then be talking up Darcy for his is kind of baffling, he's been very ordinary as a forward and offered almost nothing.
Jackson factor is big, limited sample but in the 3 games last year where he ruck shared with Meek he averaged 71 (highlighting how bad he is as a forward mostly). Was 106 the year before which is much better but still basically just getting what you pay for and I think it's hard to argue they'll use Jackson less than Meek given how much they shunned Meek and how much they've paid for Jackson.
Having said that, I do agree, Darcy has a great case if he can have a perfect preseason. He's a considerably worse forward than Jackson and a significantly better ruckman. Really Jackson should only be an issue if they've made some kind of guarantee to him on ruck minutes, otherwise it really should be 70-80% Darcy. There's probably more value in rucking Darcy 80% and then letting him rest on the pine and going more speed with Jackson in the ruck for the other times, I don't really see a benefit in him forward outside F50 stoppages and allowing Jackson to be part of the wall behind the ball, admittedly a decent benefit.
I'd definitely argue he's in my top couple of the "premium" starter options and if he shows a lot in preseason I'd definitely consider starting him. Mostly I think it's unlikely that we're looking at 120+ as the target this year, so Darcy is as good a bet as any to average 110+ which is my target line.
Still hoping Draper will provide my answer though, let me pick one of Witts, Darcy and Marshall and make some cash in the other slot would be the best outcome. And this is how I burn 10 odd trades on rucks two years in a row
Jackson factor is big, limited sample but in the 3 games last year where he ruck shared with Meek he averaged 71 (highlighting how bad he is as a forward mostly). Was 106 the year before which is much better but still basically just getting what you pay for and I think it's hard to argue they'll use Jackson less than Meek given how much they shunned Meek and how much they've paid for Jackson.
Having said that, I do agree, Darcy has a great case if he can have a perfect preseason. He's a considerably worse forward than Jackson and a significantly better ruckman. Really Jackson should only be an issue if they've made some kind of guarantee to him on ruck minutes, otherwise it really should be 70-80% Darcy. There's probably more value in rucking Darcy 80% and then letting him rest on the pine and going more speed with Jackson in the ruck for the other times, I don't really see a benefit in him forward outside F50 stoppages and allowing Jackson to be part of the wall behind the ball, admittedly a decent benefit.
I'd definitely argue he's in my top couple of the "premium" starter options and if he shows a lot in preseason I'd definitely consider starting him. Mostly I think it's unlikely that we're looking at 120+ as the target this year, so Darcy is as good a bet as any to average 110+ which is my target line.
Still hoping Draper will provide my answer though, let me pick one of Witts, Darcy and Marshall and make some cash in the other slot would be the best outcome. And this is how I burn 10 odd trades on rucks two years in a row
Yep :-
PORT Adelaide is hopeful forward/ruck Jeremy Finlayson will be available for its season opener against Brisbane next month despite requiring surgery for an ankle syndesmosis injury this week.
Finlayson was injured at training on Wednesday when his left ankle was caught under a teammate as he was tackled, with the 26-year-old unable to complete the session.
Subsequent scans confirmed a syndesmosis injury that would require surgery, putting Finlayson in doubt for the club's two pre-season games in Perth, starting next month.
PORT Adelaide is hopeful forward/ruck Jeremy Finlayson will be available for its season opener against Brisbane next month despite requiring surgery for an ankle syndesmosis injury this week.
Finlayson was injured at training on Wednesday when his left ankle was caught under a teammate as he was tackled, with the 26-year-old unable to complete the session.
Subsequent scans confirmed a syndesmosis injury that would require surgery, putting Finlayson in doubt for the club's two pre-season games in Perth, starting next month.
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2023
- Messages
- 182
- Likes
- 761
- AFL Club
- Carlton
English and Marshall haven’t left my side all preseason. Obviously both have their risks but for me, they’ve definitely got the most upside.
English has never played a full season but last year he showed that he is capable of putting up monster scores consistently. I’d hate not having him in my side If he starts the season averaging 120+ like last year.
Marshall has also shown that when he’s the #1 ruck he can also put up massive scores. Obviously there’s the risk of him playing forward this year with so many key forwards getting injured but from all reports he’s still going to be playing almost predominantly as a ruckman. For now, he stays in.
English has never played a full season but last year he showed that he is capable of putting up monster scores consistently. I’d hate not having him in my side If he starts the season averaging 120+ like last year.
Marshall has also shown that when he’s the #1 ruck he can also put up massive scores. Obviously there’s the risk of him playing forward this year with so many key forwards getting injured but from all reports he’s still going to be playing almost predominantly as a ruckman. For now, he stays in.
KFC SuperCoach 2023: The best premium Ruck options
Set and forget the ruck, right? Not in KFC SuperCoach this year, says The Phantom. Our expert rates the best premium options in the big man department.
The Phantom
21 min read
February 2, 2023 - 3:56PM
You know their names, but which KFC SuperCoach stars should you start this season?
Given the salary cap, as much as you want to, you just can’t pick all of the big-scoring guns.
The available rookies and mid-price value will dictate how many premiums you select on each line, but that’s only part of it.
Set and forget in the ruck, right?
This year it’s more like set everywhere else and forget about the ruck for the moment.
Top-line ruckmen are among the best KFC SuperCoach scorers in the game, but for varying reasons, even the best ones have questions marks hanging over them this year.
Max Gawn and Brodie Grundy are used to playing together in our teams, now they actually play on the same team in reality.
We’re about fantasy around here, though, not reality. Especially a reality we cannot yet picture clearly.
Docker big man Sean Darcy also has a new ruck partner in Luke Jackson – it’s unclear how that combination will work, too.
And Tim English is injured. So is Magpie Darcy Cameron, who sits just below premium category as the best value option this year.
Lucky we will have data from a few pre-seasons matches to assess before we have to make a final decision.
Oh, wait.
PHANTOM’S TOP FIVE
1. Rowan Marshall (StK $506,500)
2022 average: 92
“I think I am ready to step up now” are the words KFC SuperCoaches have been waiting for, and Marshall delivered them on Channel 7 last week. He’s fit and firing, and even pushed endurance king Brad Hill in a running session according to those watching on at St Kilda training. With Paddy Ryder retired and Tom Campbell having a delayed start to pre-season, the No.1 ruck role is surely his. In 2022, Marshall averaged 101 points per game as the lead man and, on average, was 34 points better off when Ryder wasn’t playing. And in the games he attended at least 90 per cent of ruck contests, his average was 120. But – and sadly there is still a but – marking targets Max King and Jack Hayes are injured and Marshall, as much as KFC SuperCoaches don’t like to admit it, is a good forward.
The Phantom’s verdict: We still can’t be 100 per cent sure Marshall is the man. But we can probably be more sure than we are about most others on this list. Locked in – for now.
2. Brodie Grundy (Melb $512,900)
2022 average: 103.5
Again, it’s not about scoring here. Like every player on this list, Grundy is an elite KFC SuperCoach scorer. If you take out the game when Collingwood played Grundy, Cameron and Mason Cox in the same side – yuck – and Grundy scored 53 points, he averaged 114 points in five matches last year before injury. He’s averaged that and more – a lot more – in every season since 2017. But what happens to his scoring alongside Gawn in 2023? Will his ability to win the ball around the ground be limited, like it was on that day against Brisbane last year? It’s hard to be sure right now. As he’s proven in recent years, Gawn is effective for Melbourne behind the ball or as a marking target in attack. Grundy’s strengths don’t lie in either of those settings.
The Phantom’s verdict: And that’s why I have hope – but I’ll be waiting to see what coach Simon Goodwin does in the pre-season games. Marshall and Grundy, both at $512k or less, would be an ideal starting ruck combination.
3. Tim English (WB $581,000)
2022 average: 105
The Bulldogs big man finally went bang in 2022, averaging 128 in his first six matches for the year including big totals of 123, 152, 138 and 160. Problem was, though, he didn’t play that sixth game until round 11, due to a hamstring injury. While he did return with that 160-point display against the Eagles, he was out again with concussion four games later. The good news – and all due respect to the bloke – Stefan Martin has retired. The bad news? English has reportedly battled an adductor injury this summer.
The Phantom’s verdict: Honestly, not really sure. As good as he could be this year, does the risk outweigh the price tag? Probably not at this point.
4. Jarrod Witts (GC $605,100)
2022 average: 109.9
The only ruckman we can right now guarantee will start and finish as his side’s No.1 big man – barring injury of course – is at No.4, Phantom? Yes, it might seem a bit off, but so was Witts’ finish to the season, with the Suns’ co-captain reaching three figures just four times in his final 10 matches, and failing to score 80 on three occasions. Sure, he tired in his first season back from a torn ACL – a fact that makes his start to the year even more remarkable. But can we really be sure he hits the heights of early last season and stays there at age 30?
The Phantom’s verdict: We can’t be sure, no, but, as this entire piece points out, we can’t be sure on a lot. I might be harsh on Witts here, but I’d prefer to spend $605k elsewhere.
5. Max Gawn (Melb $622,100)
2022 average: 113
The Melbourne skipper is a KFC SuperCoach scoring powerhouse but even he isn’t above the effects of a second ruckman. Gawn still proved vital to the Demons away from the ruck contest in 2022 but there’s no denying a slight tweak in role was detrimental to his KFC SuperCoach scoring. In the seven games Gawn attended 62 per cent of ruck contests or fewer last year, he averaged 86 points. I know. It’s a concern for a player with a $622k price tag, who is about to welcome another top-five player in his position into the game-day rotation.
The Phantom’s verdict: I’ll be staying away to start with, and I’m not sure we’ll see anything in the pre-season games that would change my mind.
Set and forget the ruck, right? Not in KFC SuperCoach this year, says The Phantom. Our expert rates the best premium options in the big man department.
The Phantom
21 min read
February 2, 2023 - 3:56PM
You know their names, but which KFC SuperCoach stars should you start this season?
Given the salary cap, as much as you want to, you just can’t pick all of the big-scoring guns.
The available rookies and mid-price value will dictate how many premiums you select on each line, but that’s only part of it.
Set and forget in the ruck, right?
This year it’s more like set everywhere else and forget about the ruck for the moment.
Top-line ruckmen are among the best KFC SuperCoach scorers in the game, but for varying reasons, even the best ones have questions marks hanging over them this year.
Max Gawn and Brodie Grundy are used to playing together in our teams, now they actually play on the same team in reality.
We’re about fantasy around here, though, not reality. Especially a reality we cannot yet picture clearly.
Docker big man Sean Darcy also has a new ruck partner in Luke Jackson – it’s unclear how that combination will work, too.
And Tim English is injured. So is Magpie Darcy Cameron, who sits just below premium category as the best value option this year.
Lucky we will have data from a few pre-seasons matches to assess before we have to make a final decision.
Oh, wait.
PHANTOM’S TOP FIVE
1. Rowan Marshall (StK $506,500)
2022 average: 92
“I think I am ready to step up now” are the words KFC SuperCoaches have been waiting for, and Marshall delivered them on Channel 7 last week. He’s fit and firing, and even pushed endurance king Brad Hill in a running session according to those watching on at St Kilda training. With Paddy Ryder retired and Tom Campbell having a delayed start to pre-season, the No.1 ruck role is surely his. In 2022, Marshall averaged 101 points per game as the lead man and, on average, was 34 points better off when Ryder wasn’t playing. And in the games he attended at least 90 per cent of ruck contests, his average was 120. But – and sadly there is still a but – marking targets Max King and Jack Hayes are injured and Marshall, as much as KFC SuperCoaches don’t like to admit it, is a good forward.
The Phantom’s verdict: We still can’t be 100 per cent sure Marshall is the man. But we can probably be more sure than we are about most others on this list. Locked in – for now.
2. Brodie Grundy (Melb $512,900)
2022 average: 103.5
Again, it’s not about scoring here. Like every player on this list, Grundy is an elite KFC SuperCoach scorer. If you take out the game when Collingwood played Grundy, Cameron and Mason Cox in the same side – yuck – and Grundy scored 53 points, he averaged 114 points in five matches last year before injury. He’s averaged that and more – a lot more – in every season since 2017. But what happens to his scoring alongside Gawn in 2023? Will his ability to win the ball around the ground be limited, like it was on that day against Brisbane last year? It’s hard to be sure right now. As he’s proven in recent years, Gawn is effective for Melbourne behind the ball or as a marking target in attack. Grundy’s strengths don’t lie in either of those settings.
The Phantom’s verdict: And that’s why I have hope – but I’ll be waiting to see what coach Simon Goodwin does in the pre-season games. Marshall and Grundy, both at $512k or less, would be an ideal starting ruck combination.
3. Tim English (WB $581,000)
2022 average: 105
The Bulldogs big man finally went bang in 2022, averaging 128 in his first six matches for the year including big totals of 123, 152, 138 and 160. Problem was, though, he didn’t play that sixth game until round 11, due to a hamstring injury. While he did return with that 160-point display against the Eagles, he was out again with concussion four games later. The good news – and all due respect to the bloke – Stefan Martin has retired. The bad news? English has reportedly battled an adductor injury this summer.
The Phantom’s verdict: Honestly, not really sure. As good as he could be this year, does the risk outweigh the price tag? Probably not at this point.
4. Jarrod Witts (GC $605,100)
2022 average: 109.9
The only ruckman we can right now guarantee will start and finish as his side’s No.1 big man – barring injury of course – is at No.4, Phantom? Yes, it might seem a bit off, but so was Witts’ finish to the season, with the Suns’ co-captain reaching three figures just four times in his final 10 matches, and failing to score 80 on three occasions. Sure, he tired in his first season back from a torn ACL – a fact that makes his start to the year even more remarkable. But can we really be sure he hits the heights of early last season and stays there at age 30?
The Phantom’s verdict: We can’t be sure, no, but, as this entire piece points out, we can’t be sure on a lot. I might be harsh on Witts here, but I’d prefer to spend $605k elsewhere.
5. Max Gawn (Melb $622,100)
2022 average: 113
The Melbourne skipper is a KFC SuperCoach scoring powerhouse but even he isn’t above the effects of a second ruckman. Gawn still proved vital to the Demons away from the ruck contest in 2022 but there’s no denying a slight tweak in role was detrimental to his KFC SuperCoach scoring. In the seven games Gawn attended 62 per cent of ruck contests or fewer last year, he averaged 86 points. I know. It’s a concern for a player with a $622k price tag, who is about to welcome another top-five player in his position into the game-day rotation.
The Phantom’s verdict: I’ll be staying away to start with, and I’m not sure we’ll see anything in the pre-season games that would change my mind.
I like Darcy but durability is obviously a huge issue and the Jackson factor is a major concern, for someone who wont pick Fyfe because of his forward craft to then be talking up Darcy for his is kind of baffling, he's been very ordinary as a forward and offered almost nothing.
Jackson factor is big, limited sample but in the 3 games last year where he ruck shared with Meek he averaged 71 (highlighting how bad he is as a forward mostly). Was 106 the year before which is much better but still basically just getting what you pay for and I think it's hard to argue they'll use Jackson less than Meek given how much they shunned Meek and how much they've paid for Jackson.
Having said that, I do agree, Darcy has a great case if he can have a perfect preseason. He's a considerably worse forward than Jackson and a significantly better ruckman. Really Jackson should only be an issue if they've made some kind of guarantee to him on ruck minutes, otherwise it really should be 70-80% Darcy. There's probably more value in rucking Darcy 80% and then letting him rest on the pine and going more speed with Jackson in the ruck for the other times, I don't really see a benefit in him forward outside F50 stoppages and allowing Jackson to be part of the wall behind the ball, admittedly a decent benefit.
I'd definitely argue he's in my top couple of the "premium" starter options and if he shows a lot in preseason I'd definitely consider starting him. Mostly I think it's unlikely that we're looking at 120+ as the target this year, so Darcy is as good a bet as any to average 110+ which is my target line.
Still hoping Draper will provide my answer though, let me pick one of Witts, Darcy and Marshall and make some cash in the other slot would be the best outcome. And this is how I burn 10 odd trades on rucks two years in a row
Jackson factor is big, limited sample but in the 3 games last year where he ruck shared with Meek he averaged 71 (highlighting how bad he is as a forward mostly). Was 106 the year before which is much better but still basically just getting what you pay for and I think it's hard to argue they'll use Jackson less than Meek given how much they shunned Meek and how much they've paid for Jackson.
Having said that, I do agree, Darcy has a great case if he can have a perfect preseason. He's a considerably worse forward than Jackson and a significantly better ruckman. Really Jackson should only be an issue if they've made some kind of guarantee to him on ruck minutes, otherwise it really should be 70-80% Darcy. There's probably more value in rucking Darcy 80% and then letting him rest on the pine and going more speed with Jackson in the ruck for the other times, I don't really see a benefit in him forward outside F50 stoppages and allowing Jackson to be part of the wall behind the ball, admittedly a decent benefit.
I'd definitely argue he's in my top couple of the "premium" starter options and if he shows a lot in preseason I'd definitely consider starting him. Mostly I think it's unlikely that we're looking at 120+ as the target this year, so Darcy is as good a bet as any to average 110+ which is my target line.
Still hoping Draper will provide my answer though, let me pick one of Witts, Darcy and Marshall and make some cash in the other slot would be the best outcome. And this is how I burn 10 odd trades on rucks two years in a row
He jumped from 71 to 84 last year as a second ruck, a lot through natural improvement (some through increased ruck minutes). If he gets a similar rise this year he'd just about pass as a F6 given he can cover the rucks as well. I read some reports during their match sim of them throwing him into the CBAs as a rover to Darcy in the final quarters, where he showed he could play bursts like a big, strong, fast, skilled midfielder. He has the talent and attributes to be just about anything, but is this the year where another pre-season and another year of maturity pushes him up to mid 90s and makes him a borderline keeper?
- Joined
- 22 Nov 2021
- Messages
- 497
- Likes
- 1,860
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
I kind of agree with you, but i could see him exploding out of the blocks, just like he did in his first 8 games after Grundy went down. Agreed i don't trust him to be fit enough to maintain it for a full season. I will likely select him at r2 and wait to see who presents themselves as the best ruck and then hopefully by rnd 8-9 he can be swung forward as a f5 or f6. With 36 trades i could even see him being a f7/r3 backup for the last 8 rounds or so, which is what he ended up being for me last season.
- Joined
- 24 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 4,380
- Likes
- 18,390
I don't want to sway anyone into or away from Cameron. I had him last year from Rd 8 onwards and he provided excellent service.
The reason I am unlikely to select him this year in my starting side is that I'm basically convincing myself that he is a forward I am happy to have in the end product.
At the moment I am unconvinced that he is somebody I want in my end game.
I fully understand he has an advantage of being slightly underpriced on Grundy rucking for 6 weeks, but it's a new year and I would just like to see the dust settle before committing. In my opinion he's still going to be there at a gettable price, and I base that on jumping on English at over 600K last year (which was a fail with missed games).
The reason I am unlikely to select him this year in my starting side is that I'm basically convincing myself that he is a forward I am happy to have in the end product.
At the moment I am unconvinced that he is somebody I want in my end game.
I fully understand he has an advantage of being slightly underpriced on Grundy rucking for 6 weeks, but it's a new year and I would just like to see the dust settle before committing. In my opinion he's still going to be there at a gettable price, and I base that on jumping on English at over 600K last year (which was a fail with missed games).
My problem with this is we are all probably starting 3 or 4 forward premiums and there will inevitably be good DPP additions, swinging Cameron forward is fine if you think hes capable of being a top 6-8 forward, I just find that hard to see with the quality we could have available up there across a 22 game season this year, dont want to be stuck with Cameron scoring 80s and 90s while everyone jumps on the flashy guy thats added DPP thats more than capable of going at 120 for the back half of the season, also leave yourself unable to jump on a value forward pick if you've already locked in a position.
Last edited:
I reckon itll be around 70 Darcy and 30 Jackson, slight increase on the split with Lobb but nothing outlandish, wont be surprised if they experiment with their use of Jackson aswell apparently had a massive pre season and moves like a midfielder already, no doubt improves but how much is the question, really need 100+ or you're stuck with a crap F6 or needing to upgrade him.
Jackson probably gets a better split if they think his aerobic capacity can expose the opposition though, will have some big games just depends if theres enough of them to off set the floor of playing mostly up forward.
Jackson probably gets a better split if they think his aerobic capacity can expose the opposition though, will have some big games just depends if theres enough of them to off set the floor of playing mostly up forward.