Position Ruck Discussion

Who is your R2?

  • Gawn 🧔

    Votes: 64 51.6%
  • Naismith 🐄

    Votes: 25 20.2%
  • Other 🤷‍♂️

    Votes: 35 28.2%

  • Total voters
    124

Bomber18

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According to Propsectus 2020, in 2019, Ceglar was rated average for hitout win rate (45.7%) and below average for hitout to advantage win rate (10.3%). AFL ruck average is 44.8% HOW% and 12.9% HOTA%
 
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I know that ruckmen's scoring has been all the rage...

Witts 50 & Lycett 70

Maybe they nullified each other but just wanted to put it out there.
I agree. I think it's a players ability to influence a game rather than a particular position. The acts that get scored highly either positively or negatively are standing out more. Scoring will also be more volatile if we have any more games. I'm thinking of dumping a high priced mid because they will all be cheap at some point.
 
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According to Propsectus 2020, in 2019, Ceglar was rated average for hitout win rate (45.7%) and below average for hitout to advantage win rate (10.3%). AFL ruck average is 44.8% HOW% and 12.9% HOTA%
I’m a bit torn on him too but he’s in for now. Had plenty of 15 disposal 20 hit out games last year so I think he’s worth the risk with this new absurd Ruck scoring. Is really the only avenue for me to correct the Naismith pick so it is what it is.

You’d have to think with Hawks clearly and repeatedly stating they want McEvoy back and with him training as a defender all pre season that Ceglar at least gets a decent crack at it for the first 6 weeks or so.

If it goes pair shaped then so be it :ROFLMAO:
 
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I’m a bit torn on him too but he’s in for now. Had plenty of 15 disposal 20 hit out games last year so I think he’s worth the risk with this new absurd Ruck scoring. Is really the only avenue for me to correct the Naismith pick so it is what it is.

You’d have to think with Hawks clearly and repeatedly stating they want McEvoy back and with him training as a defender all pre season that Ceglar at least gets a decent crack at it for the first 6 weeks or so.

If it goes pair shaped then so be it :ROFLMAO:
Is it ruck scoring or just effective ruckmen? I'm glad I didn't have English.
 

Darkie

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Ruck stats from the Herald Sun this morning. Only a small sample size of one round but doesn't seem like you have to do a heck of a lot in the ruck to score well. 10 HTA and 10 touches gets you 100 (Lycett the outlier).

View attachment 16689
Excellent stats, thank you.

Does anyone know of somewhere where H2As can easily be found?

I was thinking that comparing (1) SC scores vs H2As for R1 2020 and R1 2019 would help tell us whether ruck scoring has changed, and (2) comparing absolute H2A levels (time adjusted) for those two rounds would give an indication of whether there has been a change in game style or the interpretation of what constitutes a H2A.
 
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Ruck stats from the Herald Sun this morning. Only a small sample size of one round but doesn't seem like you have to do a heck of a lot in the ruck to score well. 10 HTA and 10 touches gets you 100 (Lycett the outlier).

View attachment 16689
Kinda hides the fact that a few of those HOTA could have been in the directly to a player who went on to kick a goal. Some rucks also have high pressure acts(Naitanui for example) once the ball hits the ground.
 
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Watched Gawn and he actually played really well after quarter time. Tough match up against the Eagles. Don't have him yet but definitely will come upgrade time.
 
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AFL.COM.AU ›

Death of a ruckman? Why clubs may abandon two big men in 2020
MAY 10, 2020

WEST Coast brought it back into vogue in 2018 and Richmond followed suit in 2019.

But how many more premiership sides will we see with two traditional ruckmen?

As coaches prepare for the permanent return of football with quarters slashed by 20 per cent to 16 minutes plus time on, decisions will be forced on how essential the second ruckman is.

Where quarters previously ran 30-32 minutes with the No.1 big man needing at least one rest, coaches will now weigh up how long ruckmen can last during a 24-26 minute term.

"I don't think too many ruckmen will be playing in the one team, we won't be playing too many talls just because of the nature of the game," West Coast's Nic Naitanui told SEN last week.

"It's a lot shorter now and unless you can go forward, kick goals and have a presence up there (attack) and justify yourself over a tall forward (there won't be two genuine rucks).

"A lot of teams will just go with a singular ruck.

"Traditionally we've always gone with two, as long as you can play elsewhere, we'll probably stick with that format."

Given Naitanui's injury history, the Eagles concede he will only ever be a 60 per cent time on ground ruckman.

But given his output at stoppages, they're happy to sacrifice having a sidekick – like Tom Hickey (52 per cent / 50 minutes) in round one – play on reduced game time without having strong influence as a forward.

It was a similar case in early 2018 when Scott Lycett was required for less time on ground alongside Naitanui in rounds 1-17 before the latter's ACL.

Then with the addition of replacement Nathan Vardy, Lycett's minutes increased for the rest of the season when both juggled minutes in attack to justify the selection of two talls.

With Naitanui fit this year, the Eagles may be the last team to commit to the dual set-up for an entire season.

When Richmond won the flag in 2017, Toby Nankervis averaged 82 per cent (102.3 minutes) time on ground during the finals series with the odd chop-out from the 190cm Shaun Grigg.

Nankervis' output dropped to 60 per cent (72.7 minutes) last September as he partnered with Ivan Soldo (52 per cent / 63 minutes) in a combination of two ruckmen who rarely spent time forward.

In the first scenario of shortened quarters in round one this year, Soldo played 58 per cent (60 minutes) and Nankervis 46 per cent (48 minutes), coming off an interrupted pre-season.

Given the Tigers proved a standalone ruckman could play more than 100 minutes during a finals series just two seasons ago, it will be intriguing to see how long they persist with two genuine big men in matches that will run between 96 and 104 minutes in 2020.

Especially considering they're two ruckmen that kicked just 10 goals from a combined 26 games last year and essentially only swap together, leaving the other three rotations to be split among 20 teammates.

"We did discuss that (ruck set-up) earlier this week," Tigers coach Damien Hardwick admitted immediately after round one.

"We do like the two rucks, we think all our rucks are quite talented and we've got another kid in (Callum) Coleman-Jones sitting in the reserves as well.

"We'll make an assessment how it goes, it didn't probably work as well as we'd like it to tonight but it's worked well for us over a period of time."

Should – as many believe – the 16-minute quarters be carried into 2021 and beyond, it would likely have a flow-on effect into the structure of a club's list and decisions on recruiting.

With list sizes (currently 44-46) expected to be reduced gradually over coming seasons, just how many traditional ruckmen will clubs be able to handle?

Given the Eagles' structure around Naitanui, they have five on their list in 2020. Essendon and St Kilda are the same.

But that could change at season's end as clubs factor in potential new rules.

Again in round one, Melbourne's Max Gawn (96 per cent) had the highest time on ground ratio in his 121-game career.

And North Melbourne's Todd Goldstein (98 per cent) matched his highest percentage for one single game to highlight how the use of ruckmen may look going forward.

Elsewhere, Fremantle's Sean Darcy will likely be able to continue with Rory Lobb, given the latter's ability to switch between ruck and attack. Brisbane's Stefan Martin-Oscar McInerney pairing will be the same.

But as Naitanui points out, it will be the Soldo-Nankervis duos who will be tested most and watched closest under the new model.

ADELAIDE
Reilly O'Brien, Billy Frampton (part forward), Kieran Strachan

BRISBANE
Stefan Martin, Archie Smith, Oscar McInerney (part forward)

CARLTON
Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Pittonet, Tom De Koning (part forward), Levi Casboult (part forward/defender)

COLLINGWOOD
Brodie Grundy, Darcy Cameron, Max Lynch, Mason Cox (part forward)

ESSENDON
Tom Bellchambers, Andrew Phillips, Sam Draper, Nick Bryan, Henry Crauford

FREMANTLE
Sean Darcy, Rory Lobb (part forward), Lloyd Meek

GEELONG
Darcy Fort, Rhys Stanley, Esava Ratugolea (part forward)

GOLD COAST
Jarrod Witts, Zac Smith, Matt Conroy

GREATER WESTERN SYDNEY
Sam Jacobs, Shane Mumford, Matthew Flynn, Kieren Briggs

HAWTHORN
Jon Ceglar, Ben McEvoy (part defender), Ned Reeves, Keegan Brooksby

MELBOURNE
Max Gawn, Braydon Preuss, Luke Jackson (part utility), Austin Bradtke

NORTH MELBOURNE
Todd Goldstein, Tom Campbell, Tristan Xerri

PORT ADELAIDE
Scott Lycett, Peter Ladhams, Sam Hayes

RICHMOND
Ivan Soldo, Toby Nankervis, Callum Coleman-Jones, Mabior Chol (part forward)

ST KILDA
Rowan Marshall, Paddy Ryder, Ryan Abbott, Sam Alabakis, Jack Bell

SYDNEY
Sam Naismith, Callum Sinclair, Michael Knoll, Hayden McLean (part forward), Joel Amartey

WEST COAST
Nic Naitanui, Tom Hickey, Bailey Williams, Nathan Vardy, Callum Jamieson

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Tim English, Jordon Sweet, Jackson Trengove (part defender)
 
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