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Position SC 2021: Midfielder Discussion
- Thread starter THCLT
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DOGS MAGNETS ON THE MOVE
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
DOGS MAGNETS ON THE MOVE
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
DOGS MAGNETS ON THE MOVE
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
The Western Bulldogs have provided some of the highest-scoring KFC SuperCoach midfielders in recent seasons, but nerves about how the arrival of Adam Treloar will impact their established stars appear to be well founded.
Marcus Bontempelli told RSN radio: “I’ll probably spend periods of time forward – or longer periods of time forward in some games” while assistant coach Steven King suggested the skipper won’t be the only player pushed out of the centre square.
“Bonty and Jack Macrae are excited about challenging themselves when they aren’t in the middle. Even exploring 75 interchanges, guys will come up for longer but also go forward,” he told the Herald Sun.
Marcus Bontempelli works on his goalkicking — something he might be doing more of this year.
And speaking about Josh Dunkley, who returned for another season at the kennel after a failed bid to move to Essendon in the trade period, King said: “Reflecting on his year, he had that bad syndesmosis and we asked him to fill a role in the ruck and he was so team-oriented that he accepted it, but we won’t do it this year. We will share the load with all our mids and with his forward craft and ability to cover ground he will play multiple positions for us and he will be accepting of that.”
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/2c045979befd3a9f78b38886fe64a524
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And that's the risk in the game right - I'm a little bit of a gambler with these things. To me Fyfe+Kelly are the only two fit mids (ironic) at the 600k mark who could outscore the guys priced higher. IF that came off that's a bit of a leg up I am happy to chase over the pack.
Neale, Oliver, Macrae will be a very popular trio - all overpriced imo but also locks to score well - Neale faces a few of his tougher opponents first up, Oliver gets DeBoar rd 3 (yep might be Trac) and Macrae has the bulldog mids factor. No doubt I could be wrong but there's signs there that paying 650-720k for them is overs. Going a little cheaper in the mids and attempt to target these guys early, cheaper is a path i'll starting to like....could go horribly wrong! but the flipside is possible as well.....risky? yeah a bit but thats equation aint it
Also a reason why I see TT as more of a stepping stone. If we build the squad as GnR with maybe a Hately/Heppel even if the 300k'ers start well and Neale falls to 640-650k - you still aint gonna reach him. Picking a TT locks a bit more cash aside to enable an early jump on a 600K + type (maybe Seagull even)
The analysis via numbers that TT 'shouldnt' be a stepping stone, or isn't a keeper hangs together of course but I think he adds flexibility that wouldn't otherwise be there if money gets spread around. A gut feel
Neale, Oliver, Macrae will be a very popular trio - all overpriced imo but also locks to score well - Neale faces a few of his tougher opponents first up, Oliver gets DeBoar rd 3 (yep might be Trac) and Macrae has the bulldog mids factor. No doubt I could be wrong but there's signs there that paying 650-720k for them is overs. Going a little cheaper in the mids and attempt to target these guys early, cheaper is a path i'll starting to like....could go horribly wrong! but the flipside is possible as well.....risky? yeah a bit but thats equation aint it
Also a reason why I see TT as more of a stepping stone. If we build the squad as GnR with maybe a Hately/Heppel even if the 300k'ers start well and Neale falls to 640-650k - you still aint gonna reach him. Picking a TT locks a bit more cash aside to enable an early jump on a 600K + type (maybe Seagull even)
The analysis via numbers that TT 'shouldnt' be a stepping stone, or isn't a keeper hangs together of course but I think he adds flexibility that wouldn't otherwise be there if money gets spread around. A gut feel
It's really hard to tell.
He didn't score well or better in the games he rucked but then you have the question of how would he have scored in those games if he hadn't rucked?
So taking say an average of 100, do we say that the extra midfield time of rucking got him to the 100 when he otherwise would have been 80 or do we think that the rucking tired him and stopped him going to 120 if he hadn't done it.
I think you can absolutely make the case for both sides of that or that it fell roughly in the middle and had no impact. I personally lean slightly towards the ruck time helped him keep it together late in the season when his role was otherwise pretty bad.
Other factor of course is that increased midfield time would absolutely cancel that out and then some.
Dunkley still polarises me, I think his starting price is overpriced on a forward role and underpriced on a midfield role and the balance between those kind of determines whether it's a fair price to start with. Ultimately though him and Marshall are really the only two forward premiums who I can make any real upside case on to start the season and so he keeps working his way back towards my side when I do pick premiums.
He didn't score well or better in the games he rucked but then you have the question of how would he have scored in those games if he hadn't rucked?
So taking say an average of 100, do we say that the extra midfield time of rucking got him to the 100 when he otherwise would have been 80 or do we think that the rucking tired him and stopped him going to 120 if he hadn't done it.
I think you can absolutely make the case for both sides of that or that it fell roughly in the middle and had no impact. I personally lean slightly towards the ruck time helped him keep it together late in the season when his role was otherwise pretty bad.
Other factor of course is that increased midfield time would absolutely cancel that out and then some.
Dunkley still polarises me, I think his starting price is overpriced on a forward role and underpriced on a midfield role and the balance between those kind of determines whether it's a fair price to start with. Ultimately though him and Marshall are really the only two forward premiums who I can make any real upside case on to start the season and so he keeps working his way back towards my side when I do pick premiums.
Haha, your analysis on all the mids I'm not picking so that I can take Steele and Petracca is good at least
(Clearly I love risk also!)I think the TT one comes down to how confident are you in him being a keeper. Really the only reason to park the money in him instead of the bank if you've got that clearly defined plan is because you genuinely think he's likely to be a keeper.
I think otherwise you're better off getting more cash generation and just sit on the cash, it's a lot more flexible and has no downside risk, Taranto absolutely can lose money and while it's not likely he also has to do a lot more to move the needle. Basically if he hits 85 for a month he's going to barely move and you've essentially got to fund the upgrade elsewhere.
Obviously, the keeper chance is quite probably worth it, especially if you rate him as a player a lot higher than I do (it seems you do and I've been wrong many times before!).
It's interesting how easy it is to find negatives on the midfield premiums this year. I'm kind of at that point where I know I have to pick them but I really feel like I'm finding the least bad option.
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OK a disclaimer first: TT isn't a lock. I'm sounding dangerously like that's where I'm at but right now he's one of my favourite 450k guys and I have a slot for 2 of them at the moment (Zac W says hi)
Firstly all of this is of course pretty subjective. As i've said already I do think he can be a keeper but I disagree that in starting him you have to plan for him to be a keeper.
To be honest I'm surprised you don't see that as more of a possibility.
In my view the below elevator pitch for the guy screams pick me. I mean Tom Green is the next coming of Matt Rowell for some and I would say it's expecting A LOT of him if you were to suggest he's about to win a BnF playing pure mid for GWS either this year or next.
#2 draft pick. Played 76 games.
As a 21 year old, wins the BnF in a team that makes the GF, averaging 110/102 DT:SC in his 3rd year. That's super elite territory (BnF at 21)
In his 2nd year he averaged 88.7 SC.
Priced at 85 going into this one.
Average 6.2 and 6.5 tackles going into last year. Averaged 4.1 last year which we know was him coming back from a full shoulder reco. Thats +10 just from tackles you could expect from him this year. Has had the full pre-season, shoulder should be cherry ripe.
**how many people are prepared to pay 495k for Rowell when TT has 9mths recovery on him (including 11 AFL games where it was tested) and is 50k less.
The only knock is that DT/SC ratio from 2019 - and even then there's reason to hope that could improve.
If I'm Leon Cameron, in thinking to myself "what worked in 2019". Why wouldnt TT not be a full-blown solid part of the mid mix? With rotations lowering, the fact he can play half fwd is a positive cause it means he isn't sitting on the bench.
Firstly all of this is of course pretty subjective. As i've said already I do think he can be a keeper but I disagree that in starting him you have to plan for him to be a keeper.
To be honest I'm surprised you don't see that as more of a possibility.
In my view the below elevator pitch for the guy screams pick me. I mean Tom Green is the next coming of Matt Rowell for some and I would say it's expecting A LOT of him if you were to suggest he's about to win a BnF playing pure mid for GWS either this year or next.
#2 draft pick. Played 76 games.
As a 21 year old, wins the BnF in a team that makes the GF, averaging 110/102 DT:SC in his 3rd year. That's super elite territory (BnF at 21)
In his 2nd year he averaged 88.7 SC.
Priced at 85 going into this one.
Average 6.2 and 6.5 tackles going into last year. Averaged 4.1 last year which we know was him coming back from a full shoulder reco. Thats +10 just from tackles you could expect from him this year. Has had the full pre-season, shoulder should be cherry ripe.
**how many people are prepared to pay 495k for Rowell when TT has 9mths recovery on him (including 11 AFL games where it was tested) and is 50k less.
The only knock is that DT/SC ratio from 2019 - and even then there's reason to hope that could improve.
If I'm Leon Cameron, in thinking to myself "what worked in 2019". Why wouldnt TT not be a full-blown solid part of the mid mix? With rotations lowering, the fact he can play half fwd is a positive cause it means he isn't sitting on the bench.
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I've got 3 of them in my current draft
He's just not a good pick if he's not producing keeper numbers. You can get significantly better production and cash generation per dollar for a lot less and you're not spending significantly more to get a keeper. I just think any slot that you're not getting either is a bad pick.
To be clear, I'm not saying Taranto is a bad pick. I'm saying if you're of the opinion that he's not more likely than not going to be a keeper, he's a bad pick. Someone like Heppell, with similar scoring history, will make 150k+ at 95, at 100 Taranto doesn't even make 100k, he's going to need some serious price spiking to generate a mediocre cash return and then he becomes really hard to cash out.
As a keeper pick, Taranto would be an exceptional starting pick. As a cash generation option he's an incredibly inefficient option. For mine you'd want to feel very strongly about him being a keeper to sacrifice the cash generation that, likely, many options offer over him.
I'm a huge fan of Green, don't see any reason he can't do something similar to Oliver to be honest and from what I saw of him last year I'd say he's already shown more as a player than Taranto whose SC ratio has been strongly negative for the last 3 year for a reason (yes I'm counting last year's abysmal ratio as negative, from the same DT Fyfe had 30ppg more SC for comparison). Taranto may fix his disposal and tendency to rack up nothing touches but we're 4 years in and, if anything, he's gotten worse in those areas.
I feel like I'm attacking Taranto here when I do quite like the pick but...
That ratio is far from elite and that's his big issue. I don't think anyone is arguing he can rack up cheap stats and butcher it, he's proven he can do that, the problem is can he do anything to fix that? 110 is an exceptional DT season, there's very little scope to go higher in that area so he has to become a better actual player to change that equation.
Secondly 2019 is an anomaly, yes they limped into a GF but that was a season with so many injuries that their 1st choice midfield for the last couple of months was Taranto, Greene and Williams. Coniglio spent an inordinate amount of time forward and missed 7 games. Kelly missed 8 games. Ward missed the entire season. Hopper was just emerging. Green obviously not even there. I don't think Ward will be ahead of him (unless he can get back to his best but he looked done last year), Green will depend on if he's developed his engine to the point where he can play the role. Now to be fair, Taranto's scoring didn't really change throughout the year but I'd argue that the emergence of Hopper and the addition of Green are not in his favour, they're just better at the role he was playing and push him away from the stuff he does well.
The tackles is more like 5.2 in 2020 when you adjust for quarter length.
Again, I don't mind the Taranto pick, I can buy your argument, perhaps in his 5th season he's worked on his disposal and decision making and can become even "bad" in that area instead of horrific, if he could get to Danger/Martin/Fyfe level of bad disposal instead of his current level that would go a long way to fixing his ratio. If he could either get more contested or ditch his absurd clanger rate that would go a long way also. He's roughly halfway between Gaff and Oliver/Danger for his contested possession rate and yet his clangers are at the top of the list (was just as bad last year as 2019 per disposal).
The forward factor works for and against him, imo. I can buy that if he's playing full time mid it's a benefit but it could just as easily become his default position and I don't see any way he can put up keeper numbers in that scenario.
I don't mind him and if you feel firmly in him being a keeper you should 100% pick him and come here and say I told you so when it works Mostly I think it's about being challenged, if everyone agrees a player is great, that's perfect, but I think it's good to get an idea what others think and feel on picks also. FWIW, Taranto is right up there on my radar for DT and there's a very strong chance I start him there if his role is what you're expecting in the preseason game, I just think he's a great DT type whose flaws are major problems for SC and those flaws aren't things that many players can fix.
He's just not a good pick if he's not producing keeper numbers. You can get significantly better production and cash generation per dollar for a lot less and you're not spending significantly more to get a keeper. I just think any slot that you're not getting either is a bad pick.
To be clear, I'm not saying Taranto is a bad pick. I'm saying if you're of the opinion that he's not more likely than not going to be a keeper, he's a bad pick. Someone like Heppell, with similar scoring history, will make 150k+ at 95, at 100 Taranto doesn't even make 100k, he's going to need some serious price spiking to generate a mediocre cash return and then he becomes really hard to cash out.
As a keeper pick, Taranto would be an exceptional starting pick. As a cash generation option he's an incredibly inefficient option. For mine you'd want to feel very strongly about him being a keeper to sacrifice the cash generation that, likely, many options offer over him.
I'm a huge fan of Green, don't see any reason he can't do something similar to Oliver to be honest and from what I saw of him last year I'd say he's already shown more as a player than Taranto whose SC ratio has been strongly negative for the last 3 year for a reason (yes I'm counting last year's abysmal ratio as negative, from the same DT Fyfe had 30ppg more SC for comparison). Taranto may fix his disposal and tendency to rack up nothing touches but we're 4 years in and, if anything, he's gotten worse in those areas.
I feel like I'm attacking Taranto here when I do quite like the pick but...
That ratio is far from elite and that's his big issue. I don't think anyone is arguing he can rack up cheap stats and butcher it, he's proven he can do that, the problem is can he do anything to fix that? 110 is an exceptional DT season, there's very little scope to go higher in that area so he has to become a better actual player to change that equation.
Secondly 2019 is an anomaly, yes they limped into a GF but that was a season with so many injuries that their 1st choice midfield for the last couple of months was Taranto, Greene and Williams. Coniglio spent an inordinate amount of time forward and missed 7 games. Kelly missed 8 games. Ward missed the entire season. Hopper was just emerging. Green obviously not even there. I don't think Ward will be ahead of him (unless he can get back to his best but he looked done last year), Green will depend on if he's developed his engine to the point where he can play the role. Now to be fair, Taranto's scoring didn't really change throughout the year but I'd argue that the emergence of Hopper and the addition of Green are not in his favour, they're just better at the role he was playing and push him away from the stuff he does well.
The tackles is more like 5.2 in 2020 when you adjust for quarter length.
Again, I don't mind the Taranto pick, I can buy your argument, perhaps in his 5th season he's worked on his disposal and decision making and can become even "bad" in that area instead of horrific, if he could get to Danger/Martin/Fyfe level of bad disposal instead of his current level that would go a long way to fixing his ratio. If he could either get more contested or ditch his absurd clanger rate that would go a long way also. He's roughly halfway between Gaff and Oliver/Danger for his contested possession rate and yet his clangers are at the top of the list (was just as bad last year as 2019 per disposal).
The forward factor works for and against him, imo. I can buy that if he's playing full time mid it's a benefit but it could just as easily become his default position and I don't see any way he can put up keeper numbers in that scenario.
I don't mind him and if you feel firmly in him being a keeper you should 100% pick him and come here and say I told you so when it works
Mostly I think it's about being challenged, if everyone agrees a player is great, that's perfect, but I think it's good to get an idea what others think and feel on picks also. FWIW, Taranto is right up there on my radar for DT and there's a very strong chance I start him there if his role is what you're expecting in the preseason game, I just think he's a great DT type whose flaws are major problems for SC and those flaws aren't things that many players can fix.Some interesting posts in here, for 50K more what do we think of Simpkin?
Started last season on fire then from memory he copped a headknock and a leg injury which really seemed to impact him.
Apart from Cripps he's probably the player I like most in that price range but is no where near as popular as Rowell or Taranto at this stage.
Started last season on fire then from memory he copped a headknock and a leg injury which really seemed to impact him.
Apart from Cripps he's probably the player I like most in that price range but is no where near as popular as Rowell or Taranto at this stage.
I liked and had Simpkin last year when M/F. Yeah, he probably lost a little steam mid year. Probably not at keeper levels as just a mid.
There is another NM mid who hasn't been mentioned at all I don't think, he had 3x140's and a 170 last year and improved his average up 18 to 104. Would be a real POD.
There is another NM mid who hasn't been mentioned at all I don't think, he had 3x140's and a 170 last year and improved his average up 18 to 104. Would be a real POD.