Position Forwards Discussion

[quite ironic]

I haven't really had my say on the Wingard saga as of yet but I spose now is as good a time as any.

I don't claim to have more inside info than other supporters but I do have a close friend that works in administration for the club who relays the info he gets to me and I still have a few loose ties to some people I met when I played for the maggies as a U/16/18 who I have a chat with from time to time, make of that what you will.

My take on the Wingard situation is that port very much wanted him to stay on their terms and Chad wanted to stay on his terms, make no mistake that he did not want to be traded, at least in the beginning. He was up for free agency at the end of 2019 and did not want to sign any form of extension as a result of that, approaching deadlines cause desperation in many cases as I'm sure many of us are aware.

Port put what most would think was a fairly generous offer to him and he was advised by his management that he could potentially get a much larger sum if he were to move though free agency at the end of this season, which could spike ports offer. As a result port told him to test his market value and then come back to the table to renegotiate. Ports reasoning was that he had come back at the start of 2018 massively overweight and until he could show he could commit (2019 pre season) they weren't willing to match the numbers being bandied about and Hinkley told him this flat out. If he was worth what him/his managers thought he was there was room for movement on ports side. It was always intended to be a testing of his value, never and actual "go shop yourself around" He took offence to this and that's when it all broke down and the rest played out as it did.

Chad was always a fantastic individual whenever I had the pleasure of talking to
him, did more than his share in regards to community events and such and always seemed genuinely happy to be doing so.

Where he failed was in his investment to the team, had almost no interaction with teammates outside of the club and spend most away games locked in in his room by himself. The importance of that is highly debatable but I think it was hugely overvalued by those in charge. They want complete buy in and with that comes forming relationships with teammates outside of training & game day, which he either tried to do and failed, or didn't try in the first place, either way it doesn't matter. He had no personal connections to his teammates, only forced connections which makes it much easier to pack up and move.

All this talk of Fortnite addiction and such is utter rubbish, what he does in his spare time is his choice and shouldn't have ever been in the media in the first place. You take away normal social opportunities for mid 20s blokes like going for a pint and a punt they need to find other avenues for relaxation. If he wants to play a video game for a few hours a day so be it.

I was so angry at the club with how they let it play out, but at the end of the day footy clubs are businesses and if one of your employees isn't realising their potential, no matter how great, they need to be moved on for someone who will.

I'll still be cheering him on every week bar 2 most years and will always be a port boy to me. I also think once Hinkley is gone there's a very real chance he may come back, as much of a pipe dream that is.

As a Port supporter and reading a heap of this on our Bigfooty board myself from usually reliable sources can +1 what Big Russ is saying.

 

[pizza safety]

Mundy has averaged 104.1 in the 8 games without Fyfe the past two years and scored 91 in the one game without Neale.

You’d expect in these games he would have had more midfield opportunity so the question is if this trend continues without Neale but with Fyfe as well as if he can hold up for another season.

The fact he’s been a midfielder and not a flanker like Simpson makes me more concerned that he could quickly fall off.

 

[siwel]

Dunkley didn't make the poll...

 

[PC]

I haven't really had my say on the Wingard saga as of yet but I spose now is as good a time as any.

I don't claim to have more inside info than other supporters but I do have a close friend that works in administration for the club who relays the info he gets to me and I still have a few loose ties to some people I met when I played for the maggies as a U/16/18 who I have a chat with from time to time, make of that what you will.

My take on the Wingard situation is that port very much wanted him to stay on their terms and Chad wanted to stay on his terms, make no mistake that he did not want to be traded, at least in the beginning. He was up for free agency at the end of 2019 and did not want to sign any form of extension as a result of that, approaching deadlines cause desperation in many cases as I'm sure many of us are aware.

Port put what most would think was a fairly generous offer to him and he was advised by his management that he could potentially get a much larger sum if he were to move though free agency at the end of this season, which could spike ports offer. As a result port told him to test his market value and then come back to the table to renegotiate. Ports reasoning was that he had come back at the start of 2018 massively overweight and until he could show he could commit (2019 pre season) they weren't willing to match the numbers being bandied about and Hinkley told him this flat out. If he was worth what him/his managers thought he was there was room for movement on ports side. It was always intended to be a testing of his value, never and actual "go shop yourself around" He took offence to this and that's when it all broke down and the rest played out as it did.

Chad was always a fantastic individual whenever I had the pleasure of talking to
him, did more than his share in regards to community events and such and always seemed genuinely happy to be doing so.

Where he failed was in his investment to the team, had almost no interaction with teammates outside of the club and spend most away games locked in in his room by himself. The importance of that is highly debatable but I think it was hugely overvalued by those in charge. They want complete buy in and with that comes forming relationships with teammates outside of training & game day, which he either tried to do and failed, or didn't try in the first place, either way it doesn't matter. He had no personal connections to his teammates, only forced connections which makes it much easier to pack up and move.

All this talk of Fortnite addiction and such is utter rubbish, what he does in his spare time is his choice and shouldn't have ever been in the media in the first place. You take away normal social opportunities for mid 20s blokes like going for a pint and a punt they need to find other avenues for relaxation. If he wants to play a video game for a few hours a day so be it.

I was so angry at the club with how they let it play out, but at the end of the day footy clubs are businesses and if one of your employees isn't realising their potential, no matter how great, they need to be moved on for someone who will.

I'll still be cheering him on every week bar 2 most years and will always be a port boy to me. I also think once Hinkley is gone there's a very real chance he may come back, as much of a pipe dream that is.

Thanks for posting that BR

 

[Ben's Beasts]

Dunkley didn't make the poll...

There's a maximum of 10 options available so there were a couple of relatively popular picks that couldn't be added which include Dunkley.

 

[Bermi]

Mundy has averaged 104.1 in the 8 games without Fyfe the past two years and scored 91 in the one game without Neale.
You’d expect in these games he would have had more midfield opportunity so the question is if this trend continues without Neale but with Fyfe as well as if he can hold up for another season.
The fact he’s been a midfielder and not a flanker like Simpson makes me more concerned that he could quickly fall off.

That's what I'm thinking, once players reach 33/34yo they play in less demanding positions. I can see why FRE have decided to play him in the middle, because they haven't got many other experienced players to play there.

 

[bomberboy]

https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2019-03-07/lynch-firms-for-season-opener

Star Richmond recruit Tom Lynch has given the strongest indication yet he will take part in the Tigers' home-and-away opener after moving freely and joining full training on Thursday.

The 26-year-old had posterior cruciate ligament surgery on a knee last July and had a follow-up operation four months later, which has restricted his pre-season.

With the dawn of a new season against Carlton at the MCG just two weeks away, Lynch impressed in the 30 minutes media were allowed to watch training.

The key forward took to Punt Road Oval before anyone else, and appeared to be working on his ability to come to a complete stop.

Then as the group filtered out, he worked on his spring with the man he's set to form perhaps the competition's deadliest one-two combination with, Jack Riewoldt.

The Tigers then drilled their team defensive structure and how they would move the ball once winning it back, against minimal opposition.

His teammates roared with delight when Lynch led out and marked, but were disappointed when his shot didn't go through.

Lynch won't play against Hawthorn on Saturday night, but could take part in a VFL practice match before the season starts.

The former Gold Coast co-captain sits on a similar timeline to fellow forward threats Josh Caddy and Jason Castagna, who are battling ankle complaints.

Once back playing, Lynch is an option to relieve Toby Nankervis in the ruck, with Shaun Grigg unlikely to continue that role considering the new 6-6-6 rules disadvantage smaller back-ups.

Leppitsch, however, explained why that might not happen.

"Centre bounce is always the danger with ruckmen, particularly with a PCL. As we know, it doesn't lend itself to doing centre bounces, with that knee-on-knee contact," Leppitsch said.

"Around the ground is more like any other body position contact, so I wouldn't think that's an issue.

"It's more the running he'll do in the ruck and whether that'll blow him up to play forward. That's more our concern, more than the physical stuff around the ground."

Brownlow medallist Dustin Martin is set to face the Hawks on Saturday night after hyperextending his right knee against Melbourne last Sunday, but finishing the game.

"He wants to play. Good luck trying to talk about resting with Dusty, he won't have any of it. We expect him to train well and play this week," Leppitsch said.

Grigg appeared on the track, but did very little.

"He's had some ups and downs, he's had an interrupted pre-season. It hasn't been the perfect prep for 'Grigga'," Leppitsch said.

"Probably unlikely to start the season, the way it's going. We're really taking a cautious approach with him."

Saturday's clash with Hawthorn will be revealing in determining who replaces him as the second ruckman.

Athletic forward Noah Balta shot into contention with a superb performance against the Demons and is battling with the more traditional ruck option Ivan Soldo for a spot.

"It depends what type you want – do you want a more around-the-ground player plus a second ruck, or just a flat-out ruck?" Leppitsch said.

"We're a bit confused on that one still ourselves, so this week will probably tell the story."

Tough nut Jacob Townsend also trained in a sign he has overcome his thigh issue.

Who's game?

 

[quite ironic]

Man I’m struggling at F3.

Danger and Heeney easy locks.

There’s those guys splitting minutes:
Menegola & Kelly might be in a side with not enough points to go around. Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
Kelly isn’t a very good user of the ball at times and also was prone to some poor scores. I can see these guys struggling in the losses when Danger and Selwood still get their points.

Dunkley, Mclean, Wallis all have to share points with Macrae, Bont, Libba, Hunter, Daniel. There just seems too many midfielders which means guys will be pushed forward like Dunkley and McLean at times who both struggle to score when not in the coal face.

Then there’s the older brigade:
These two bring somewhat consistency but really lack the ceiling that the others above can go up to. Will they play enough midfield minutes, will they have enough TOG in their older legs:
Boak, Mundy, R.Gray (has higher ceiling but also injury concerns)

Then there’s the unproven youngsters who have potential to rise:
These two were both extremely frustrating to watch and almost create a mental block (whether you had them or not) making it very hard to pick them due to the combination of their inability to win the ball reguarly, inconsistency in scoring and poor use of the ball at times (Petrecca, Billings)
Petrecca, Billings, Gresham

Proven scoring forwards who have injury worries:
These tall forwards have had issues throughout the pre season but both open the possibility of having good years with the new rule changes, being in a better side (Lynch) and players leaving (T.McDonald). If only they were fully fit maybe they’d be getting a look in in more teams.
Buddy, T.McDonald, T.Lynch, J.Gunston
Smalls who have faced injury interrupted pre-season as well who fall into this category: Wingard, De Goey

Underpriced players coming back from injury:
These vary in price and may be more looked at in positions F4 but have had somewhat decent scoring historys as forwards but are coming off of injuries. Tempting with their ability to rise in price if fit but do have big question marks over consistency if fully fit as well.
T.Greene, Daniher


Anyone else want to shed some light on why they are or are not looking at guys outside of these and the general queries or confident thoughts they have on them.

 

[Tails]

Man I’m struggling at F3.

Danger and Heeney easy locks.

There’s those guys splitting minutes:
Menegola & Kelly might be in a side with not enough points to go around. Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
Kelly isn’t a very good user of the ball at times and also was prone to some poor scores. I can see these guys struggling in the losses when Danger and Selwood still get their points.

Dunkley, Mclean, Wallis all have to share points with Macrae, Bont, Libba, Hunter, Daniel. There just seems too many midfielders which means guys will be pushed forward like Dunkley and McLean at times who both struggle to score when not in the coal face.

Then there’s the older brigade:
These two bring somewhat consistency but really lack the ceiling that the others above can go up to. Will they play enough midfield minutes, will they have enough TOG in their older legs:
Boak, Mundy, R.Gray (has higher ceiling but also injury concerns)

Then there’s the unproven youngsters who have potential to rise:
These two were both extremely frustrating to watch and almost create a mental block (whether you had them or not) making it very hard to pick them due to the combination of their inability to win the ball reguarly, inconsistency in scoring and poor use of the ball at times (Petrecca, Billings)
Petrecca, Billings, Gresham

Proven scoring forwards who have injury worries:
These tall forwards have had issues throughout the pre season but both open the possibility of having good years with the new rule changes, being in a better side (Lynch) and players leaving (T.McDonald). If only they were fully fit maybe they’d be getting a look in in more teams.
Buddy, T.McDonald, T.Lynch, J.Gunston
Smalls who have faced injury interrupted pre-season as well who fall into this category: Wingard, De Goey

Underpriced players coming back from injury:
These vary in price and may be more looked at in positions F4 but have had somewhat decent scoring historys as forwards but are coming off of injuries. Tempting with their ability to rise in price if fit but do have big question marks over consistency if fully fit as well.
T.Greene, Daniher


Anyone else want to shed some light on why they are or are not looking at guys outside of these and the general queries or confident thoughts they have on them.

Can't shed any light unfortunately as I have all of them on the watch list .... have a few others but feel like we are throwing darts at a dartboard to come up with the right combo ... a 2-1-5 setup seems too light initially though ....

 

[Diabolical]

Joe D taking a screamer 30m out, directly in front. Then hooking his set shot.

He’s back!!

 

[Bermi]

Man I’m struggling at F3.

Danger and Heeney easy locks.

There’s those guys splitting minutes:
Menegola & Kelly might be in a side with not enough points to go around. Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
Kelly isn’t a very good user of the ball at times and also was prone to some poor scores. I can see these guys struggling in the losses when Danger and Selwood still get their points.

Dunkley, Mclean, Wallis all have to share points with Macrae, Bont, Libba, Hunter, Daniel. There just seems too many midfielders which means guys will be pushed forward like Dunkley and McLean at times who both struggle to score when not in the coal face.

Then there’s the older brigade:
These two bring somewhat consistency but really lack the ceiling that the others above can go up to. Will they play enough midfield minutes, will they have enough TOG in their older legs:
Boak, Mundy, R.Gray (has higher ceiling but also injury concerns)

Then there’s the unproven youngsters who have potential to rise:
These two were both extremely frustrating to watch and almost create a mental block (whether you had them or not) making it very hard to pick them due to the combination of their inability to win the ball reguarly, inconsistency in scoring and poor use of the ball at times (Petrecca, Billings)
Petrecca, Billings, Gresham

Proven scoring forwards who have injury worries:
These tall forwards have had issues throughout the pre season but both open the possibility of having good years with the new rule changes, being in a better side (Lynch) and players leaving (T.McDonald). If only they were fully fit maybe they’d be getting a look in in more teams.
Buddy, T.McDonald, T.Lynch, J.Gunston
Smalls who have faced injury interrupted pre-season as well who fall into this category: Wingard, De Goey

Underpriced players coming back from injury:
These vary in price and may be more looked at in positions F4 but have had somewhat decent scoring historys as forwards but are coming off of injuries. Tempting with their ability to rise in price if fit but do have big question marks over consistency if fully fit as well.
T.Greene, Daniher


Anyone else want to shed some light on why they are or are not looking at guys outside of these and the general queries or confident thoughts they have on them.

I think what you said about Menegola sums up our problem of finding the right players to complete our teams: Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
That's the problem I see, players now are expected to play multi roles, so when they play a role that allows them to score high, they do, but if they have to play a minor role in a low scoring position, they score poorly.
So what I'm trying to say is, we have to accept that this may be the new trend for many players this year, to play multi roles, so they will not be consistent scorers. So when selecting a F4, it will be a guess, as we don't know the % that your player will play in a high scoring position.

 

[Drew]

Great insights Russ - thanks!

 

[Herbie66]

Man I’m struggling at F3.

Danger and Heeney easy locks.

There’s those guys splitting minutes:
Menegola & Kelly might be in a side with not enough points to go around. Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
Kelly isn’t a very good user of the ball at times and also was prone to some poor scores. I can see these guys struggling in the losses when Danger and Selwood still get their points.

Dunkley, Mclean, Wallis all have to share points with Macrae, Bont, Libba, Hunter, Daniel. There just seems too many midfielders which means guys will be pushed forward like Dunkley and McLean at times who both struggle to score when not in the coal face.

Then there’s the older brigade:
These two bring somewhat consistency but really lack the ceiling that the others above can go up to. Will they play enough midfield minutes, will they have enough TOG in their older legs:
Boak, Mundy, R.Gray (has higher ceiling but also injury concerns)

Then there’s the unproven youngsters who have potential to rise:
These two were both extremely frustrating to watch and almost create a mental block (whether you had them or not) making it very hard to pick them due to the combination of their inability to win the ball reguarly, inconsistency in scoring and poor use of the ball at times (Petrecca, Billings)
Petrecca, Billings, Gresham

Proven scoring forwards who have injury worries:
These tall forwards have had issues throughout the pre season but both open the possibility of having good years with the new rule changes, being in a better side (Lynch) and players leaving (T.McDonald). If only they were fully fit maybe they’d be getting a look in in more teams.
Buddy, T.McDonald, T.Lynch, J.Gunston
Smalls who have faced injury interrupted pre-season as well who fall into this category: Wingard, De Goey

Underpriced players coming back from injury:
These vary in price and may be more looked at in positions F4 but have had somewhat decent scoring historys as forwards but are coming off of injuries. Tempting with their ability to rise in price if fit but do have big question marks over consistency if fully fit as well.
T.Greene, Daniher


Anyone else want to shed some light on why they are or are not looking at guys outside of these and the general queries or confident thoughts they have on them.

fantastic post , probably got 25-30 players that could finish Top 10

maybe the answer is not a forward at all ?.

add Martin , Langford , Parish , Parfitt

would love to take a punt on a Ainsworth , Cerra or Rayner but think it might be a season too soon.

Currently running 3-1-4

Heeney , Gray , Mundy , Greene + 4

Once you work out the answer kindly let us all know.

Great post

 

[Connoisseur]

I think what you said about Menegola sums up our problem of finding the right players to complete our teams: Menegola provides decent consistency but is prone to poor games when played on the wing all day.
That's the problem I see, players now are expected to play multi roles, so when they play a role that allows them to score high, they do, but if they have to play a minor role in a low scoring position, they score poorly.
So what I'm trying to say is, we have to accept that this may be the new trend for many players this year, to play multi roles, so they will not be consistent scorers. So when selecting a F4, it will be a guess, as we don't know the % that your player will play in a high scoring position.

S Menegola:
Wins: 103.68 from 31 (14/31 below 100, 9/31 120+)
2016: 99.33 from 6
2017: 105.68 from 12
2018: 103.85 from 13

Losses: 90.67 from 15 (9/15 below 100, 2/15 120+)
2016: 0 from 0
2017: 84.83 from 6
2018: 94.56 from 9

Pre Bye: 97.24 from 21 (11/21 below 100, 6/21 120+)
2016: 0 from 0
2017: 98 from 8
2018: 96.77 from 13

Post Bye: 102.38 from 26 (12/26 below 100, 6/26 120+)
2016: 99.33 from 6
2017: 102.09 from 11
2018: 104.78 from 9

Disposals: 23.73
SC Avg when disposals equal/exceed 24: 110.55 from 11 (low of 65 and a high of 144, 2/11 below 100, 4/11 120+)
SC Avg when disposals below 24: 89.55 from 11 (low of 57 and a high of 129, 7/11 below 100, 2/11 120+)
Contested Possessions: 9.55
SC Avg when contested possessions equal/exceed 10: 114.89 from 9 (low of 79 and a high of 144, 2/9 below 100, 4/9 120+)
SC Avg when contested possessions below 10: 89.77 from 13 (low of 57 and a high of 129, 7/13 below 100, 2/13 120+)
Time on Ground%: 80.05%
SC Avg when time on ground equals/exceeds 81%: 104.18 from 11 (low of 71 and a high of 128, 4/11 below 100, 3/11 120+)
SC Avg when time on ground below 81%: 95.91 from 11 (low of 57 and a high of 144, 5/11 below 100, 3/11 120+)

With Geelong's tough start and Menegola's tendency to score well in wins and post bye he should be a great upgrade target around the bye period.

 

[Connoisseur]

T Kelly:
Wins Avg: 94.69 from 13 (8/13 below 100, 2/13 120+)
Losses Avg: 91 from 9 (5/9 below 100)
Pre Bye Avg: 92.31 from 13 (8/13 below 100, 1/13 120+)
Post Bye Avg: 94.44 from 9 (5/9 below 100, 1/9 120+)

Disposals: 23.09
SC Avg when disposals equal/exceed 24: 117.11 from 9 (low of 95 and a high of 155, 1/9 below 100, 2/9 120+)
SC Avg when disposals below 24: 76.62 from 13 (low of 44 and a high of 106, 12/13 below 100)
Contested Possessions: 10.64
SC Avg when contested possessions equal/exceed 11: 110.5 from 12 (low of 75 and a high of 155, 3/12 below 100, 2/12 120+)
SC Avg when contested possessions below 11: 72.4 from 10 (low of 44 and a high of 91)
Tackles: 3.55
SC Avg when tackles equal/exceed 4: 96.82 from 11 (low of 57 and a high of 155, 7/11 below 100, 2/11 120+)
SC Avg when tackles below 4: 89.55 from 11 (low of 44 and a high of 118, 6/11 below 100)
Time on Ground%: 83.95%
SC Avg when time on ground equals/exceeds 84%: 95.09 from 11 (low of 44 and a high of 118, 5/11 below 100)
SC Avg when time on ground below 84%: 91.27 from 11 (low of 48 and a high of 155, 8/11 below 100, 2/11 120+)

Disposal Efficiency: 64.37%
Contested Possession Rate: 44.32%

 

[Leroy]

Would Danger (F1), Kelly (F3) and Parfitt (F5) be too many from the same side to have in one line?
Parfitt with lots of CBAs through JLT suggests the coach wants him in there for some zip - Kelly I feel can kick up to 100.

Parfitt could be BIllings or Gresham but... meh. This is currently playing out in a universe where Balta isn't named and I only run Setterfield, Drew and Parker as forward rookies.

 

[Pieman17]

Would Danger (F1), Kelly (F3) and Parfitt (F5) be too many from the same side to have in one line?
Parfitt with lots of CBAs through JLT suggests the coach wants him in there for some zip - Kelly I feel can kick up to 100.

Parfitt could be BIllings or Gresham but... meh. This is currently playing out in a universe where Balta isn't named and I only run Setterfield, Drew and Parker as forward rookies.

You’ve got also Ablett,Menegola,Selwood,Duncan,Dahlhaus playing the mid/forward role that could all take points off each other.

I like them both as options just not sure if they will have the consistent opportunities to score at 95 plus.

 

[PC]

Would Danger (F1), Kelly (F3) and Parfitt (F5) be too many from the same side to have in one line?
Parfitt with lots of CBAs through JLT suggests the coach wants him in there for some zip - Kelly I feel can kick up to 100.

Parfitt could be BIllings or Gresham but... meh. This is currently playing out in a universe where Balta isn't named and I only run Setterfield, Drew and Parker as forward rookies.

Deep fwd line there Leroy, thinking there won't be 4 useful fwd rookies?

 

[jarveg]

Deep fwd line there Leroy, thinking there won't be 4 useful fwd rookies?

After JLT 1 and 1 game of JLT 2, who would you bank in addition to Setterfield, Drew, and Parker?

 

[PC]

After JLT 1 and 1 game of JLT 2, who would you bank in addition to Setterfield, Drew, and Parker?

Balta, but he certainly isn't 100%