Opinion Questions For Rowsus

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Hi Rowsus, looking forward to another season armed with your advice.

It seems like this preseason more than ever people are getting way too carried away with the top echelon of midfielders (and Whitfield), justifying selection by saying "oh JKelly could average 125-130, Danger could average 130". I'm still leaning towards durable premiums who will play 21-22 games and average 105-115 (Oliver, Bontempelli, Zerret, etc.) Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Futhermore, I'd love to apply this in the forwardline with considerations for F1 & F2 at the moment looking like two of Martin, Heeney and Ziebell, all durable players who should be right up there for total points for FWDS
 

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20+ Games & 115+ Average

Outside the past 2 seasons, only a handful of players have managed this feat in the preceding years, Dangerfield the standout over the last 5 seasons.

2019
130 B Grundy
128 M Gawn
123 J Macrae
121 L Neale
120 N Fyfe
117 P Cripps
116 J Dunkley
115 P Dangerfield
115 M Bontempelli

2018
130 B Grundy
129 T Mitchell
128 M Gawn
122 P Dangerfield
119 P Cripps
115 C Oliver

2017
136 P Dangerfield
120 D Martin
119 T Mitchell
115 S Docherty

2016
132 P Dangerfield
119 S Pendlebury
119 M Gawn

2015
129 T Goldstein
120 P Dangerfield
116 S Pendlebury
115 D Hannebery

2014

124 S Pendlebury
121 J Selwood
115 S Jacobs
115 R Sloane
 

Rowsus

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I'm chuffed at the privilege of opening this thread for season 2020. I trust that you're well and truly rested for another 1,000+ questions coming your way @Rowsus :)

I've been cycling through the 'return from injury' players (Docherty, Roberton, Doedee, Mitchell & Smith) in & out of my teams without any conviction and/or reason for either of them to stay or not. Part of me is feeling the FOMO on their perceived value and part of me is telling me that they all carry an element of associated risk.

Should I be putting a line through all of them and take the 'wait and see' approach or should I be trying to slot them in where I can as their value is too hard to ignore...?

Interested in how you view them individually as starting prospect and how you would rank them in order from lowest to highest risk...?
Good to have one of my favourites throw up the first question for 2020.
I'm well, thank you, and hope you are too. Not sure I'm well rested, but I'm psyching myself up for another interesting season ahead!

Now that BBL is all but over, it's time to get serious about SC!

Docherty $436,100 - 2019 0/0, - 2018 0/0, - 2017 22/115, - 2016 22/109
Coming off 2 knee reco's and priced at 80, which means he roughly has to score at 88+ to rise in price.
The main area his high scoring came from was intercept possessions and long accurate kicking. both are SC gold. He had a DE% of around 80% in his 2 most recent seasons, which is elite for if you're a Midfielder, but "hoped for" from Defs. The difference he had a K:Hb ratio of 2.2:1 in those seasons. A long kicking, prefers to kick than handball, efficient disposal, with intercept possessions. That's the perfect SC Defender. The question is, is he still that player, and have Carlton restructured enough to change his role? My answer is, no, he's not still that player, and yes, Carlton have restructured. So does this rule him out as a good pick? No it doesn't rule him out, as he only needs to average around 96 to be a good pick. Personally, I'd be surprised if he can go 22/100+ this season. When you think of players to have come back from double ACL's in recent time (Liberatore, NicNat are two obvious one) none have returned to their previous level. For this reason, and the fact that he is already priced at 80, Docherty doesn't seem like a must start to me. He's very unlikely to get out of reach, as he's very unlikely to go on a consistent 110+ rampage.

Roberton $260,400 - 2019 0/0, - 2018 4/69, - 2017 22/93
Heart problems mean they will be more cautious with him, than any other player on their list. Priced at 48, so he's just an expensive Rookie. Probably needs to average 75+ and play 8+ games for you to get your value out of him. Sounds easy, but it might not be that simple. In 9 seasons of AFL football he has bettered those marks twice, and equalled them twice, which means 5 times he missed it, and this was before the heart problems. Given we usually get a little spoilt for Def Rookies, I'd be inclined to let him go. If he cranks out some good scores, and gets a big negative B/E, then jump on, but until that happens, I'd just put him to one side.

Doedee $273,700 - 2019 1/56, - 2018 20/82 (6 x 100+, 5 x 82-91, 9 x 79 or less)
Did a knee around 1/4 time in Round 1 last season. Young players that have an ACL are 5 to 7 times more likely to have another ACL reco, than players that haven't had one. Not always the same knee, either. (source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/42640/how-knee-double-trouble-mystifies-the-medicos ). Priced at 50, he needs to average high 70's for at least 8 games to be a good pick this season. Another one that presents as an expensive Rookie type. I really think you'd only entertain starting him, if you either were of the opinion he could consistently push into the 80+ area, or if we are lacking base level Def Rookies. At the moment, I'm not sure either of those apply. Like Roberton, if he presents with a big negative B/E, then consider jumping on him, outside of that, look elsewhere.

Mitchell $630,900 - 2019 0/0, - 22/129, - 22/119
Still has a cloud over him, priced at 116, so hasn't really got a huge discount on him. Look at him this way. In 2018 he opened in price at $653,500, and it wasn't until Round 21 that he would have cost you at least $50k more than his opening price. During that time, he bottomed out at $575,900 in Round 9. That was in a season where he averaged 129! I think you'd be crazy to start him, as there are just too many questions to be answered, and you don't want any questions on players that cost $600k+!

Smith $335,800 - 2019 7/69, - 2018 22/98
Priced at 62, so he's priced right in that trap zone. He needs to score at close to 90 to be a worthwhile pick, and if he does that, you probably keep him sitting at F6, hoping he might push it up to a genuine Keeper level. Coming back from surgery for chronic knee problems, as opposed to ACL like most of the above. I'm a bit worried his 2018 season peaked with the "first season at new club" factor kicking in. Some players experience this, then quickly drop back to previous levels. Only 8 Fwds scored 1800+ points for the season last season, the lowest since SC started. If that trend continues, you'd probably take a 20/90 season from Smith as a win. To my mind, that won't be the case this season, and we are probably looking for 95+ to be a good Fwd Keeper again this season. The word "chronic" worries me, and he probably gets managed, if he gets through the season. I'd be more inclined to go without him, but I guess we wait and see his role/form in the pre-season.

I'd be happy if I can construct my team without any of them. Depending on the pre-season form I might find a spot for Docherty or Smith (in that order), but would be happy to wait and see if the others can produce something, that makes them hard to skip!
 
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whats your view on degoey as a starter this year?

due to other starters I came across him as a starter and am hoping from a s/c p.o.v that he will be a good starter
 
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Great to see you dishing up the facts, figures and opinions again Rowsus!

My quizzy is about Darcy Byrne-Jones. He finished the season of really well last year, in your opinion what were the reasons for this and do you think he can pick up where he left off last year, regards Bob.
 
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Roberton $260,400 - 2019 0/0, - 2018 4/69, - 2017 22/93
Heart problems mean they will be more cautious with him, than any other player on their list. Priced at 48, so he's just an expensive Rookie. Probably needs to average 75+ and play 8+ games for you to get your value out of him. Sounds easy, but it might not be that simple. In 9 seasons of AFL football he has bettered those marks twice, and equalled them twice, which means 5 times he missed it, and this was before the heart problems. Given we usually get a little spoilt for Def Rookies, I'd be inclined to let him go. If he cranks out some good scores, and gets a big negative B/E, then jump on, but until that happens, I'd just put him to one side.
I think making the 75+ ave is not a major issue but can he stay on the park is. He was above 75 in 3 of his last 4 seasons and was above it in 2018 until he collapsed in the 2nd Q and we never saw him again. He would be the one I would probably go for because the investment is relatively low and the exit is easier that say Docherty.
 
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Good to have one of my favourites throw up the first question for 2020.
I'm well, thank you, and hope you are too. Not sure I'm well rested, but I'm psyching myself up for another interesting season ahead!

Now that BBL is all but over, it's time to get serious about SC!

Docherty $436,100 - 2019 0/0, - 2018 0/0, - 2017 22/115, - 2016 22/109
Coming off 2 knee reco's and priced at 80, which means he roughly has to score at 88+ to rise in price.
The main area his high scoring came from was intercept possessions and long accurate kicking. both are SC gold. He had a DE% of around 80% in his 2 most recent seasons, which is elite for if you're a Midfielder, but "hoped for" from Defs. The difference he had a K:Hb ratio of 2.2:1 in those seasons. A long kicking, prefers to kick than handball, efficient disposal, with intercept possessions. That's the perfect SC Defender. The question is, is he still that player, and have Carlton restructured enough to change his role? My answer is, no, he's not still that player, and yes, Carlton have restructured. So does this rule him out as a good pick? No it doesn't rule him out, as he only needs to average around 96 to be a good pick. Personally, I'd be surprised if he can go 22/100+ this season. When you think of players to have come back from double ACL's in recent time (Liberatore, NicNat are two obvious one) none have returned to their previous level. For this reason, and the fact that he is already priced at 80, Docherty doesn't seem like a must start to me. He's very unlikely to get out of reach, as he's very unlikely to go on a consistent 110+ rampage.

Roberton $260,400 - 2019 0/0, - 2018 4/69, - 2017 22/93
Heart problems mean they will be more cautious with him, than any other player on their list. Priced at 48, so he's just an expensive Rookie. Probably needs to average 75+ and play 8+ games for you to get your value out of him. Sounds easy, but it might not be that simple. In 9 seasons of AFL football he has bettered those marks twice, and equalled them twice, which means 5 times he missed it, and this was before the heart problems. Given we usually get a little spoilt for Def Rookies, I'd be inclined to let him go. If he cranks out some good scores, and gets a big negative B/E, then jump on, but until that happens, I'd just put him to one side.

Doedee $273,700 - 2019 1/56, - 2018 20/82 (6 x 100+, 5 x 82-91, 9 x 79 or less)
Did a knee around 1/4 time in Round 1 last season. Young players that have an ACL are 5 to 7 times more likely to have another ACL reco, than players that haven't had one. Not always the same knee, either. (source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/42640/how-knee-double-trouble-mystifies-the-medicos ). Priced at 50, he needs to average high 70's for at least 8 games to be a good pick this season. Another one that presents as an expensive Rookie type. I really think you'd only entertain starting him, if you either were of the opinion he could consistently push into the 80+ area, or if we are lacking base level Def Rookies. At the moment, I'm not sure either of those apply. Like Roberton, if he presents with a big negative B/E, then consider jumping on him, outside of that, look elsewhere.

Mitchell $630,900 - 2019 0/0, - 22/129, - 22/119
Still has a cloud over him, priced at 116, so hasn't really got a huge discount on him. Look at him this way. In 2018 he opened in price at $653,500, and it wasn't until Round 21 that he would have cost you at least $50k more than his opening price. During that time, he bottomed out at $575,900 in Round 9. That was in a season where he averaged 129! I think you'd be crazy to start him, as there are just too many questions to be answered, and you don't want any questions on players that cost $600k+!

Smith $335,800 - 2019 7/69, - 2018 22/98
Priced at 62, so he's priced right in that trap zone. He needs to score at close to 90 to be a worthwhile pick, and if he does that, you probably keep him sitting at F6, hoping he might push it up to a genuine Keeper level. Coming back from surgery for chronic knee problems, as opposed to ACL like most of the above. I'm a bit worried his 2018 season peaked with the "first season at new club" factor kicking in. Some players experience this, then quickly drop back to previous levels. Only 8 Fwds scored 1800+ points for the season last season, the lowest since SC started. If that trend continues, you'd probably take a 20/90 season from Smith as a win. To my mind, that won't be the case this season, and we are probably looking for 95+ to be a good Fwd Keeper again this season. The word "chronic" worries me, and he probably gets managed, if he gets through the season. I'd be more inclined to go without him, but I guess we wait and see his role/form in the pre-season.

I'd be happy if I can construct my team without any of them. Depending on the pre-season form I might find a spot for Docherty or Smith (in that order), but would be happy to wait and see if the others can produce something, that makes them hard to skip!
Geez , all the cheapies down back. Would think it would be difficult to create a good structure without taking the risk on a couple of these. All depends on Rookies but I have all three currently in my team, Dochers, Dodo, Robo. Let's hope they become viable options over the pre season viewing.
 

Rowsus

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Hi Rowsus, looking forward to another season armed with your advice.

It seems like this preseason more than ever people are getting way too carried away with the top echelon of midfielders (and Whitfield), justifying selection by saying "oh JKelly could average 125-130, Danger could average 130". I'm still leaning towards durable premiums who will play 21-22 games and average 105-115 (Oliver, Bontempelli, Zerret, etc.) Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Futhermore, I'd love to apply this in the forwardline with considerations for F1 & F2 at the moment looking like two of Martin, Heeney and Ziebell, all durable players who should be right up there for total points for FWDS
Hi C98, welcome back.
You're first part is right on the money!
Firstly, people tend to exaggerate expected players performances. It's amazing how many players are touted as 120+ prospects, or worse still, 130 prospects. As @THCLT excellent table shows, for players with 20+ games in the last 6 seasons we have:
Number of players 120+: 5, 4, 2, 1, 2, 2
Number of players 130+: 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0
For the most part, you can expect 2 to 4 players to be 120+ in any given season, and one of those to be 130+, yet we hear/read that as many as 10 or 12 players are nearly bankable as being a 120+ player. People need to temper their expectations. One of the tricks to this game is to have reasonable expectations. That applies equally to game counts! So many people "assume" their players will be good for 21+ games, but the reality is, that fewer genuine Prems play 21+ than people might suspect. This leads me to the second point where you are right on the money.
Reliability. Often talked about, but under valued. By reliability here I'm talking two things. Reliable to get on the park, and reliable to not go flakey on us, and start a string of regrettable scores. Under the wrong circumstances any player can fail this test, but some have a history of it. Let's look at the 37 players that opened SC 2019 with a price of $550k or higher.
QFR2020 9588.png

There are a few things we can take from this table, and I'll revisit in the next post, but for this question, we can see that 40% of the top 37 priced players coming into 2019 played 20 or less games, and a bit over 20% played 18 or less.

What does playing less than 22 games do to a 110 average player? Let's assume you need to play a 60 point Rookie to replace that 110 player when he misses.
22 games @ 110 = a PIT ave of 110.0 (PIT stands for Place In Team, for the newer people to this thread)
21 games @ 110 = a PIT ave of 107.7
20 games @ 110 = a PIT ave of 105.5
19 games @ 110 = a PIT ave of 103.2
18 games @ 110 = a PIT ave of 100.9
So we can see, while it's nice to own a 110 player, if he only gives you 18 games, he's really only worth 100/game!

You can apply this same logic to every line, just adjusting the base score as you go. I'd definitely do the same in the Fwd line, but I'm not sure Ziebell is one I'd target for scoring reliability. Last season he gave us a 22/91 season, which as it turned out was pretty good for a Forward. Most seasons it probably comes up just short of what you might hope for. Ziebell will be 29 at the start of the season, so anything he does above his established scoring pattern (ESP) can be considered a spike.
His last 7 seasons have produced PIT 60 averages of: 91, 85, 86, 95, 86, 79, 89 - He looks like a player with an ESP of 20 games at PIT 87 to me.

QFR 2020 9856.png
 

Rowsus

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20+ Games & 115+ Average

Outside the past 2 seasons, only a handful of players have managed this feat in the preceding years, Dangerfield the standout over the last 5 seasons.

2019
130 B Grundy
128 M Gawn
123 J Macrae
121 L Neale
120 N Fyfe
117 P Cripps
116 J Dunkley
115 P Dangerfield
115 M Bontempelli

2018
130 B Grundy
129 T Mitchell
128 M Gawn
122 P Dangerfield
119 P Cripps
115 C Oliver

2017
136 P Dangerfield
120 D Martin
119 T Mitchell
115 S Docherty

2016
132 P Dangerfield
119 S Pendlebury
119 M Gawn

2015
129 T Goldstein
120 P Dangerfield
116 S Pendlebury
115 D Hannebery

2014
124 S Pendlebury
121 J Selwood
115 S Jacobs
115 R Sloane
Ripping and timely post, thanks @THCLT.
Remember people, having reasonable expectations is one of the keys to this game, and you can only reasonably expect around 5 players to go 20+/115+ in any given season!
 

Rowsus

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I said I'd revisit this table from #9,589 above.

QFR2020 9588.png

What can we take from this?
Firstly, it ties in with some research I did around 6 seasons ago. This can vary depending on the type of player, position and body type, but as a general rule of thumb, it's the transistion from an age of 27 to 28 or 29 that most players start to show the cracks in SC reliability. Whether that is on the park reliability, or scoring reliability, it's an area where most players are entering the grey zone. Pun intended.
Secondly, the age shown is their age at Round 1 in 2019, so they were all one year younger at the start of 2018. These are the 37 players that earned the highest prices coming out of that 2018 season. Oliver, Bont and Mouch are the 3 young ones there. 25 of the 37 were in the age group of 23 to 27 when the 2018 season started. Something to keep in mind, especially if looking for break out players. Amazingly, when you look through the various threads, you can see players as old as 27 or 28 being touted as potential break out players! I shake my head. Potential spike players, maybe, but not break out players! Lets look at the players, by age at Round 1 2018

27 - Dangerfield, Sidebottom, Beams, Ward
26 - Dusty, Fyfe, Gawn, Duncan
25 - Heppell, Parker, Gaff, Treloar
24 - Mitchell, Laird, Lloyd, Yeo, Neale, Cognilio, Ross

Not too many of those are/were break out prospects.
Once a player hits that 90-110 game area they largely have Established Scoring Patterns, and anything above their ESP is likely to be a spike. That's handy to remember not just with break out candidates, but potential Faux Prems as well!

A potential example of a Faux Prem is M Walters. His SC record, counting back from 2019 is:
22/101, 18/88, 17/87, 22/79, 20/81, 6/79, 18/89 + another 4 seasons prior to that, with 8 or less games.
He was 28 when the 2019 season started, and had played 129 games. His numbers coming into the 2019 season suggested his ESP was something like 19/87. He'd never had a 90+ season in 10 seasons of football. He had 1 season with 22 games, and 1 season with 20 games, the rest were all 19 or less. Now, because of last seasons numbers, there will be some labelling him as a Prem this season. While it's not impossible for him to score at a Prem level this season, history suggest he is unlikely to, and will most probably revert to his ESP of around 19/87. That, in my books, makes him a real potential Faux Prem. Prems need to earn the label, and that means more than one season of Prem scoring!
 

Rowsus

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whats your view on degoey as a starter this year?

due to other starters I came across him as a starter and am hoping from a s/c p.o.v that he will be a good starter
He's certainly in the break out window. 24 years old, 6th season, 88 games under his belt.
I'm just worried about 3 things:
No progression in his scoring last season. He went from 17/88 to 16/87.
His game count is 16, 17, 14, 20, 16.
He gets a bit anchored to the goal square at times, which means he will always throw in some 40's and 50's, that drag his average down.
Yes, he gets the occassional run on the ball, but I liken that to when people were getting excited about Stringer getting a move to the Midfield. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is nearly always temporary, and he won't do it often enough to boost his average sufficiently, to cover those missed games.
He's not for me.
 

Rowsus

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Great to see you dishing up the facts, figures and opinions again Rowsus!

My quizzy is about Darcy Byrne-Jones. He finished the season of really well last year, in your opinion what were the reasons for this and do you think he can pick up where he left off last year, regards Bob.
Hi Bob, good to see you back.
I know it's a small sample size, so it is possible it is more coincidence than cause, but I noticed something with his scoring last season. It seemed to be tied to Burton being there, or not.

QFR2020 9594.png

DBJ went 7/101.5 when Burton missed, or played 41% TOG or less.
When Burton played a full game, DBJ went 14/79.0.
It may be misleading, but it's enough for me to pass on DBJ, unless something happens to Burton.
 

Rowsus

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I think making the 75+ ave is not a major issue but can he stay on the park is. He was above 75 in 3 of his last 4 seasons and was above it in 2018 until he collapsed in the 2nd Q and we never saw him again. He would be the one I would probably go for because the investment is relatively low and the exit is easier that say Docherty.
While I think he can probably make the 75 too (probably), I'm worried that he really gets cuddled through the early games, which might mean extended bench time, and missed games. I'm also worried that both Wilkie and Battle did pretty well playing the Roberton type role last season, so Roberton no longer has that all to himself. All those concerns have me prefering a base level Rookie over Roberton.
 
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He's certainly in the break out window. 24 years old, 6th season, 88 games under his belt.
I'm just worried about 3 things:
No progression in his scoring last season. He went from 17/88 to 16/87.
His game count is 16, 17, 14, 20, 16.
He gets a bit anchored to the goal square at times, which means he will always throw in some 40's and 50's, that drag his average down.
Yes, he gets the occassional run on the ball, but I liken that to when people were getting excited about Stringer getting a move to the Midfield. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is nearly always temporary, and he won't do it often enough to boost his average sufficiently, to cover those missed games.
He's not for me.
Additionally, De Goey came back very unfit pre-season.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...r/news-story/4b17d5f91b26efc86a9f45a71ac4fe0f
 
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Ok another question, while we are on a roll!

General strategy question: For those that are thinking of doing a locked and loaded midfield this year (read that as you may but i would consider locked n loaded 6 superprems/prems or equivalent in the mids) shooting themselves in the foot?

I guess the advantages are that premos are much harder to get into your squads as the season progresses and you're buring 2-3 cows to get them in at times (looking at Ablett and Pendles for example), so it would make sense to start with them now? All these prems generally hold their value well compared to other lines (they score the most) and there is a possibility of picking someone up for a bargain in these lines when they have their "bad game".

Disadvantages: generally rookie mids score the most in the mids and thus generate the most coin, having few of these can hurt cash generation.

With the amount of value in the forward line this year/fallen prems (compared to previous years), the difference this year with higher priced rookies and the unpredicability of the def line i'm leaning more and more into the staked midfield option. Does anyone else agree?

Thanks Rowsus :)
Do midfield rookies always score the most? I loaded up in the year that Dunkley debut and whilst some came good, they were very late in the season and often thrown forward early on. Midfield rookies at junior level who play forward don't always seem to score well.

Not sure if this would pique Rowsus, I wonder whether the common thought of mid rookies score best a factor of recent 1-2 seasons and if this could analysed. Think the great man may have done something 3 years back and was interesting to compare def rookie #4 vs mid#7 (rather than 6th if you are going 4 premium mid) vs fwd #4, given difference in bench depth.

For me, I love defender rookies and dislike forward the most. feels like the former consistently deliver points if given games, mids ok, rucks amazing and forwards mixed and volatile.

I do find my best starting teams have more midfield premiums, as you as say, 5 looks the optimal number.
 
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Hi Rowsus,
I'd love to get your thoughts this year on two players that have historically been at different ends of the durability spectrum:
Dangerfield and Naitanui.
Danger has been so consistent and durable for years now, but his numbers appear to be fading and he is into that age bracket where soft tissue injuries are more commonly encountered.
NicNat is obviously underpriced for what he can produce, and with a cloud over Gawn to start the year he is very enticing given his uninterrupted preseason.
These two have been in and out of my team more than any others this preseason so I'd love to get your view.
Cheers.
 
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Hi Bob, good to see you back.
I know it's a small sample size, so it is possible it is more coincidence than cause, but I noticed something with his scoring last season. It seemed to be tied to Burton being there, or not.

View attachment 15440

DBJ went 7/101.5 when Burton missed, or played 41% TOG or less.
When Burton played a full game, DBJ went 14/79.0.
It may be misleading, but it's enough for me to pass on DBJ, unless something happens to Burton.
Fantastic stuff Rowsus, many thanks and keep up the great work!
 
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